Who's Really the BOSS?

There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.

Rachel Dillon: This is Who's really the boss. A podcast for accounting firm leaders who want to grow with intention and lead with purpose. I'm Rachel Dolan, and along with my husband, Marcus Dillon, we share real stories from our accounting firm, Practical firm growth strategies, and the tools you need to lead your clients, your team, and your life well.

Rachel Dillon: Welcome back to another episode [00:00:30] of Who's Really the Boss podcast.

Marcus Dillon: Hey, thanks for having me back.

Rachel Dillon: Let's do a life update this episode and then we'll do a girls update on the next episode.

Marcus Dillon: All right. Yeah, no sounds good. Uh, lots of updates. So love your new background. Uh, for those that are watching, uh, instead of listening, uh, maybe people can view YouTube and just look at the new setup. So your office, uh, new home, uh, in Fort Worth that we've officially moved into And [00:01:00] I would just say moving homes as you get older is a harder thing to do. Uh, just like the, uh, physical aspects of moving and recovery and being tired all the time. So, uh, it's been a challenge. We were in an Airbnb for about three months while this home was getting renovated. Uh, three month project turned into a five month project, but we're happy to be in it. My background's not completely done yet. I've got my couch [00:01:30] and walls, painted lamps, all that fun stuff. But my, uh, art is not on my back wall, so that's coming soon. You have some curtains or shades, whatever they call that drapery. Uh, is the fancy word that that means you paid more for it if you bought drapery, um, window treatments. Window treatments. Okay.

Rachel Dillon: Yes, because that covers it. All right. Because soon enough, I will not be so dark, uh, backlit because I will have shades that come down, and [00:02:00] then curtain panels that also close or stay open, but super fancy and layered and colorful and all the things. And I won't be a little black speck in the camera window. So there's that. But yeah. Yeah. So we decided to move in the middle of busy season because why not? So we acquire firms in the middle of busy season. We move homes in the middle of busy season. Um, [00:02:30] I think you just love a challenge that, you know, like if I'm already busy, how much more can I do? So then that way when it's not as busy, we can really take the time off and rest or vacation.

Marcus Dillon: The trick is that when it's not really that busy part of that comment, right? Um, so yeah, know if you're going to be stressed out anyway, might as well just layer more onto it and do what you want. Uh, and you know, so I think that was the piece where as empty [00:03:00] nesters, we saw ourselves, uh, traveling on the weekends to be with family, mainly our two daughters. And we work from home. Uh, the entire team is remote. Uh, we do have some physical office presence with mostly coworking space in Texas, but then we do have an office in Missouri. Uh, but you and I work remotely from home in the same home, uh, every day. And so it just kind of got boring, kind of got lonely. And we were already traveling [00:03:30] a lot, so we just figured, hey, let's be boring and lonely, kind of closer to the two people that we travel to the most, which are our daughters. And so the move made it a little bit easier to see both of them. One's a ten minute walk away, the other one's an hour and a 15 minute drive away. So, um, yeah, really fun stuff. We moved at the end of 2025, uh, have been in Fort Worth, but now, um, you know, in a, in our home versus [00:04:00] temporary.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. So move in went seamless. And then as soon as we talk about this, we'll move on to the actual episode. Um, moving went fairly seamless. We had help. We did not try to do this on our own or offer, you know, pizza and beer to friends. So we did hire movers to help us carry the heavy stuff and, uh, carry boxes in. And then once we moved in, pretty much everything was in good working order. We did find out that, uh, [00:04:30] the oven and stove had not been connected. I am embarrassed to say that. I think it took us six days to realize that that had not been done. So that means that we haven't cooked in a long time, or we would have known that a lot sooner.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah, I would, I would say it wasn't six days. Uh, it wasn't quite that. So don't feel bad about it. But as long as the microwave works, uh, we're usually pretty good. Uh, we checked that out the first day and, uh, but yeah, like, even [00:05:00] today, we've been in this house now not even a week, but, you know, a few days using washer and dryer for the first time realized that the dryer exhaust vent was completely loaded with, uh, blockage right from the previous owner. So we had to solve for that. Uh, we can actually get 5G fiber internet here. Uh, so I feel like I am AI now, uh, how fast we can go. Um, but the, I got [00:05:30] kind of, im ambitious with the router mesh network and had too many, uh, different rooms going. And so I had to scale that back and now it actually works better. Um, versus thinking I was doing the right thing by like layering on, uh, different Eero mesh devices on top of one another. It was actually causing confusion and making our internet slower. Or bogged down dropping all that fun stuff. So, uh, but yeah, like really, really fun [00:06:00] stuff as part of, you know, just moving in and realizing all the, all the things. So it'll be a while before we're fully settled, but we're getting there day by day.

Rachel Dillon: I think every IT professional is like rubbing their face, listening to you talk about DIY ING that process for, for, for an actual business office. We just happen to live here too. We mostly work here and then we also live here too. Um, but I think that that's a perfect segue into [00:06:30] our topic for today, which is talking about being the ones to lead change in our firms. So as leaders, sometimes as firm owners and partners, but really, as anyone who's leading within the firm, um, being the one who is going to guide the rest of the team through Necessary change and we'll say necessary because change is inevitable. And if we are going to continue running [00:07:00] successful accounting firms, we have to be willing to change. And who better than the leaders of the firm to be at the front end of that, helping support others through it?

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. And I would take it one step further. What we'll talk about today and the rally cry for 2026. It can be applied to more than just business, more than just a firm that you're running or helping lead. It can apply to life or relationships that you know you're working through. And we started off, [00:07:30] you know, talking about change in our personal life that we're actually living through, uh, started, um, every year brings new change. But, you know, with, uh, kids no longer living at home and needing you, uh, really to run into practices and everything that, that was that chapter. Um, so leading through that change, maybe it's just a relationship relationship and some of this could also apply. But, um, I think with where we're at today in the firm and in the businesses [00:08:00] leadership, you know, isn't about maintaining what we built up to this point. It's about stewarding what could be and moving forward. And I think we introduced the rally cry of lead change, create impact at our, um, gather event. That was in November of 2025. Uh, the rally cry for 2025 was, uh, growth at all costs or it was a version of that. It was, uh.

Rachel Dillon: The [00:08:30] goal is growth, not comfort.

Marcus Dillon: Exactly. But and I, you know, I've, uh, I've had some discussions about that, unpack that a little bit more. That was probably the, still the right goal for 2025 to grow top line revenue, grow team size, create capacity, create budget for team members. Uh, but now, you know, we're in the season of refinement. And change is the word that is constant through this 15 years [00:09:00] of ownership and 43 years of life, obviously. So, um, but yeah, lead change, create impact, uh, something we believe in, it's something we introduced to the collective team, um, at that gather event. And so what I feel right now as a leader in a firm is just rapid change. Uh, every time I look around the room or, um, you know, virtually, I guess you would say it's just moving faster than I would like it to. Uh, [00:09:30] the world is spinning faster than I would like it to. I was actually on a call, uh, with a vendor partner of ours in another peer preparing for a, uh, just a talk, uh, you know, a very small talk with their leadership team at that vendor And, you know, part of it is they're coming at it from a technology lens. Like, how fast is this moving? What are firms, how are they reacting? What do they care about? And I just had to stop and say, hey, what firms [00:10:00] and leaders have cared about and have focused on the last few decades that hasn't gone away, that hasn't changed. And that's, you know, building great teams and, you know, having capacity and having team members go through out a career and replacing team members that move on.

Marcus Dillon: So obviously that side of the business has is still there. Uh, client side continuing to cultivate a [00:10:30] great client, uh, list and serve those clients really well. All of that is still there. So the things that have changed in our world are technology advancements, which technology was there. It was always changing at a pace. It just feels like that pace is increased. Now where we're at today with AI and all the automations and technology layers that you can bring into your business. And then the second piece of that that has never been there before is the M&A succession, private [00:11:00] equity, just acceleration. Um, that's, that's only been around for a couple of years in accounting. It feels like, especially in the smaller firms that are now becoming part of platforms and asking themselves questions about, hey, am I going to opt into something like this? Or am I just going to be aware that it exists? Because now I'm, you know, competing and peers with firms that are backed by different financial resources and being [00:11:30] okay with that. So all that to say, rapid change creates pressure on leadership. And I think at this stage, you can't be complacent. You can't run the business the way you always have, the way you did last year, the way you did last month. You continue to have to look forward and evolve with the change that exists.

Rachel Dillon: I know on a lot of your conversations, you have been asking people how fast they [00:12:00] think we'll say it this way, just because I think a lot of people think about it in these terms, or at least clickbait wants you to think about it in these terms. But how fast does AI coming for our jobs? Yes. And so you have asked multiple people in different settings. So larger firms, similar sized firms to us, people who are not in firms, but maybe in related either professional services or even vendor partners. And so thinking about that, what [00:12:30] are some of the responses that you've gotten and maybe specifics on what the discussion was about?

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. If you talk to people in larger firms, as I have, so part of why I spend my time with partners and leaders in larger firms is networking and business development. As they continue to grow and go after larger clients. Some of their smaller clients are great clients for us, so they kind of fall down a [00:13:00] layer, if you will. And so I spend time with firms that are larger than us, and some of those firms are much larger. And one of those firms is a top 20 firm. Uh, we were able to kind of refer things over tap into their knowledge base when needed. So we maintain a good relationship with them. Um, some of that is doomsday. Like you can't get trapped in like everything's going away the way that some of the top 20 and above firms think is that technology [00:13:30] and AI are, are like rapidly going to replace everything. And you even see what PwC is doing. Um, they're doubling down on the technology and AI as far as entry level and they have slashed recruiting and HR because they no longer need to go on to college campuses and recruit as heavily as they did, because if that layer of team is gone or not needed, they can be more selective. They don't have to go do the wine and dine show, which kind [00:14:00] of sad for for that generation of college kid that's going to miss out on the recruiting season.

Marcus Dillon: But that's PwC's approach. And you know, they're leaning more into that versus you have E, which is leaning more into or it seems they're leaning more into the human aspect where they're doubling the CPA exam bonus once you pass. I think that's now a $10,000 bonus at E, and they're just going about it a little bit different. They obviously have major investments in AI and technology, but [00:14:30] you just have to be careful with who you talk to, because their perspective on the response may relate to an environment that's completely different than yours. And so when I hear the doomsday scenario, um, that clients don't really need, you know, advisors because they can have AI create a dashboard and speak to that AI agent to understand that dashboard and kind of have this ongoing dialog. Yes, that's possible, but that's only going to be possible for your most [00:15:00] tech savvy clients. So you may actually turn out, um, some of those services you do for your highest technology savvy clients. Um, but your clients who are still sending in paper still, you know, operating in a way where you're really holding their hand, the runway is going to be much longer than some of those top 20 people that I've spoken with think, um, and maybe it's not top 20, maybe it's top 100 firms, uh, [00:15:30] you know, 60 plus million dollars in revenue and above, um, just because they serve private equity backed businesses that all of their principals, all of their clients really have a finance or business background.

Marcus Dillon: So they're leaning into AI, which means those professionals have to do it at the same pace of their clients. And I think that's where in that conversation with that leader, in that firm, he no longer has conversations about whether or, you know, how [00:16:00] are you doing? How are the kids? The question that he asks everybody he talks to is, how are you using AI today? And he started asking that question of his clients. And real quick, he learned that like, this is not going to end well if we don't adapt and change at the same pace or, or better that our clients are changing. Because if your clients are changing faster than you are, you're going to be the weakest link in that relationship, [00:16:30] and they're going to move on faster than you can. And so I think that's a really great question to ask. And if you ask your clients or ask your prospects or ask your peers, the people you are closest, the people that are closest like you. How they're using AI you at least want to be at the same pace or a little above their change management.

Rachel Dillon: So should we add that to our prospect questions? Uh, just to determine [00:17:00] maybe how long these people will actually be clients if they become clients today, maybe that would help us project out. We have about 12 to 18 months if they're, um, super tech savvy or we have about 3 to 5 years if they're not, uh, potentially something like that to guide what was one of the examples that were given on, I think it was a client of that person, how they were using AI or what they've seen coming through the doors from clients [00:17:30] as far as individual use of AI, not team members or within the firm.

Marcus Dillon: Well, um, it wasn't even so that like that use case is, is probably not applicable to a lot of the firms that listen to this. Because I think a lot of the, a lot of the people that follow us and, you know, model after DBA or are part of collective, they, they may be plus or minus where we're at. Um, and one of the stories that was a firm that [00:18:00] that's probably smaller than us, but more tech savvy, uh, just because of how they operate. Um, one of their clients, which you attract other tech savvy people. If you're that person, one of their clients was very tech savvy. He crafted a dashboard using some AI agent had the professional, the CPA review that dashboard, say, hey, what am I missing? Is this true? Is it holding up? And then after he got the okay [00:18:30] that the dashboard was well built, it had everything he pretty much said. He then turned to the CPA advisor and said, okay, like what value are you now bringing in this relationship that I can't just get from this dashboard? Ai agent. And I don't I don't think the CPA had a great response. So it was, hey, let's scale back services or, you know, move to more of an a la carte as needed model. But I have what I need. You've blessed it and reviewed it. [00:19:00] Now I'm doing, I'm going to communicate with this DIY A A agent all hours of the day when you're not available.

Marcus Dillon: And so, um, some of that will occur. That was the use case that kind of stuck with me. Um, because, you know, it's just, but it's also your top 1% of tech savvy clients. And what, what I've been saying recently is you're going to have to like you and your business. You're going [00:19:30] to have to choose how analog you want to exist in this digital world. And so the touch points that happen. How can you create a great customer experience? Create great touch points and then have digital in the background. Doing making the sausage, doing the work, whatever you want to say, because that's where people will continue to pay a premium is for the human element, the human touch point compression and pricing will go down if you if you solely create a digital product. [00:20:00] I think that's kind of a race to the bottom. Um, but yet to be seen as well. So, um, the other use case, I would say is this prospect that we're actively talking to. And so you, you've been talking with a, uh, an oral surgery center, uh, a group of four doctors, three partners, the four doctors coming in as a partner, um, six, 8 million. I can't remember [00:20:30] what their top line revenue is. They do really well. Um, and this group still runs QuickBooks desktop. They take their practice, you know, summary reports out of their dental practice software and then do a monthly age adjusting journal entry into QuickBooks desktop and clear out all the deposits that were going to liability account for a client, you know, customer deposits or whatever.

Marcus Dillon: And then that's how they book their top line revenue. [00:21:00] Um, and then the other thing they do is they do a monthly journal entry for their American Express bill whenever they enter the payment for the American Express bill. And so all that to say, like, we're going to come in, we're going to set up QBO. We're going to do bank feeds all the like low hanging fruit, probably get them on something like ramp up, try to automate or standardize that journal entry to where it's pulling in data. Um, [00:21:30] but, but that's just those clients are still out there, you know, and that client's going to come to us. And I think even the main doctor said, we set this business up 15 years ago, 16 years ago, and never updated our processes because we have the same team in place. You know, it's just it is what it is. So all that to say, like you've got the one person that wants you to build a dashboard and they're going to like move on. But at the same time, you've got people who are still stuck in [00:22:00] 2004, maybe even before that, you know, so I.

Rachel Dillon: Think you said 1996, which is.

Marcus Dillon: Funny because.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah, because yes, we might reference that as like 15 years ago, but actually it was a lot, a lot more than 15 years ago. Yeah, we're getting old. We're getting old for sure.

Marcus Dillon: But, uh, but yeah, all that to say, like, where are you hanging out is what you'll see. So if you hang out in Silicon Valley and you're super tech savvy, it could be a doomsday scenario. So, but if you go hang out in Main Street America, you know, it may [00:22:30] not be.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah, absolutely. Um, and so let's talk through what are we doing as far as preparing for the changes that are coming, but also guiding our team through those changes? So I'd love to just share what we're thinking about, but also what we're working on currently, even if it's not finished or, you know, like ready to roll out completely.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. Well, big picture [00:23:00] part of this came out of, uh, leading change. Uh, not as well as I could or, or as we could as a leadership group. And so some of that pain was felt in 2025 and even earlier years. Um, and just not navigating change. Well, whatever that could have been, it could have been, you know, the, the move to remote, the move to, uh, you know, exit some clients, the move of team members off of the team, just [00:23:30] navigating any change that we've done over the years? I would say we're better today than we were in the past, and part of that is communicating change in a way that your stakeholders, your team members, your clients, any other party that's involved can be a part of that change management and you can invite them in versus it being more reactive and just told to them. So, um, [00:24:00] that's ultimately what we started to study on things that were, we were paying attention to in 2025 as things felt, um, felt like we had some pain, but we continued to move through that growth. And part of it was, you know, even with growth, you know, that's changed with downsizing that's changed. So, um, I, I just kind of held out if, if anything in my life, I want to be known as someone that helped through change. And part of that is in my role today within DBA [00:24:30] and collective is is leading through change. And so I'm surrounded by other leaders in our organizations that ultimately lead others through change. And if we can be known as someone that navigated change really, really well and helped others move through that change, uh, that's great. Like, and that's a, that's a goal of mine is to be seen as that as a helper that helps people navigate through change.

Marcus Dillon: So when we didn't lead through change, there [00:25:00] was just, uh, you know, just a variety of different things that happen. People became disengaged, uh, as far as like the service, as far as the atmosphere of employment, it was mediocre at best. So, and you know, just with that, it was, there was starting to build like this tension or this animosity because I was known as someone that was addicted to change. And I, maybe I still am today. Um, but you know, people [00:25:30] being okay of what they're signing up for because they're in my realm. That was, hey, as long as you know he's going to be changing something in the future, but don't join, don't, don't ride along on this bus thinking it's going to just be a straight, narrow path from here on out. Because as we know, running businesses, running firms, serving clients, you know, leading families, it's never straight up into the [00:26:00] right. It's always going to be this jagged every day ups and downs, roller coaster of life. And so you just have to, you have to communicate and lead very well. Because if you don't, the rest of the passengers on that bus are going to be, um, you know, carsick from all the twists and turns that you take throughout your leadership journey. So those are some of the things that ultimately led us to this point. Before I get into the four piece framework, uh, that, that we found and we adopted. [00:26:30] I also want to just push it back to you to see, was there anything that you noticed, whether it was in me in DBA and collective throughout 2025, before we really adopted this mindset of, uh, lead change, create impact.

Rachel Dillon: Um, well, I'll just go back. I know that you're super hard on, um, the goal is growth, not comfort. And that's probably for maybe people who are like excited about change and like ready to [00:27:00] go. They don't need details. They don't need anything like, yes, let's do it. Like, let's try something new. But for those of us who are a little more risk averse, who don't prefer change, um, that's really a great reminder. We're going to be better on the other side of this. Like we need to keep pushing. We don't need to be complacent. We don't need to get stuck because then we're going to look up and be so far behind that we can't really catch up, that our old knowledge, our old skills, the things that we did previously, [00:27:30] they don't matter anymore. And the gap is so large. Like now. How? How do we even get close to being relevant and applicable anymore? And so, um, we were out with friends at dinner and talking about, you know, like what our day to day looks like. And I started listing off all of the things that I have done or currently do. And then thinking back to when I started, when I came to answer phones and make copies and greet clients, if they came in the door. [00:28:00] And that was literally all the tasks that I was going to do. Um, and to think where all of the roles and responsibilities that I have been through and every single one of them felt like, this is too hard. I don't want to do this, you know, like, how am I going to learn whatever is next? How am I going to learn how to make a website? How am I going to learn how to do all of these things that they weren't necessarily in my skill set.

Rachel Dillon: Before I did them. So just want to say like, I think that that's really good. [00:28:30] I do think when we're talking about making changes for others or encouraging others to make changes that they are not on board with, a lot of times clarity is the problem. They they just don't understand why it's so important. You know, things are working just fine the way that they are. Um, they don't necessarily know what the uncertainty is really great of how it's really going to impact [00:29:00] them. A lot of times it feels like this is just going to take me longer and I'm going to have to work more. And I don't have any more hours or capacity left to give. I'm giving more than I even agreed to or thought I would be. Um, now. So how am I going to do this? That's going to require even more of me. Um, so those are some things that I have noticed as far as just with our own team, with myself. Um, of that's kind of [00:29:30] where the negativity or the rejection of no, don't make me change. Don't make me do this. I'm not on board. Um, comes in as when it's really uncertain or unclear of why is this important? And, um, how is this going to impact me?

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. The, the three questions that we used to try to answer in communicating change to the team.

Rachel Dillon: When we were getting better, right?

Marcus Dillon: When we were getting in.

Rachel Dillon: The very beginning, the very beginning was like, we're going, [00:30:00] let's go. Let's do.

Marcus Dillon: This. I remember, I remember when we merged in Tom's firm in 2017 or 2016. I remember being so excited about it. I think maybe you and I had talked about it. I don't know that I talked to anybody else on the team about it, and then I gathered everybody in like the conference room because we were still physically present. And I remember like that probably didn't go over as well as I could have hoped. You know, it's like, hey, we're about to grow and we're going to do that through acquisition. And that was the first that was [00:30:30] the first acquisition that a lot of team members had been a part of, because we started the business through acquisition. But team really wasn't a thing, you know, it was just myself and you were there but not working in the business. But, you know, it's like that first acquisition that we did in 2016 where it was actually bringing us a sizable amount of clients in and team members, uh, communicating that was not, was not as good as we've done here recently. Um, so the buy in, you know, getting teams, team members thoughts, [00:31:00] leaders thoughts, um, obviously is pretty important. And I would say back to your point, um, you know, we've said change is inevitable. Change is not optional. All that good stuff, whatever it is, but, um, similar to culture, you know, if you don't work on your culture, you still have a culture. It's just unintentional. The same can be said on change. And so if you have unintentional change in your business and you kind of just roll with the punches and, you know, drift versus if you're intentional [00:31:30] with change, that's actually an option that you can lean into.

Marcus Dillon: And so, um, that's something we decided to do a few years back. So we tried to answer the question, what is or questions? What is changing? What is staying the same? And how does this impact me from, from the team member perspective, that's how we used to try to solve for that and lay out those three questions. And I think that was a great first step. There's still gaps in that. Um, [00:32:00] and we only thought about it from the team members perspective, not a client or another third party. Um, and so those are, that was kind of the evolution we went from not not being able to communicate the change all the way to, hey, here's these three questions and even now to where we're at today. So, uh, in 2025, I was introduced to the four piece framework. Um, that was a part of my C 12 curriculum. Um, and so definitely want to give a shout out to how I was introduced to it there. Four [00:32:30] piece is actually Patrick Lencioni, uh, who's very, uh, you know, a part his he's weaved in through the DBA, um, DNA, if you will, we've done the five Dysfunctions of a team. He's got the four piece framework now that we kind of use other, um, other things, uh, working genius. Just a lot of great content from Patrick Lencioni and the table group, his company. So four piece framework seemed like it kind of aligned with all the chains that we were living [00:33:00] through. And we just said, hey, this is good to adopt. And we talked a little bit on it at, um, at gather in November, but just taking it a step further and kind of revisiting it today, you can use it as a filter, if you will.

Marcus Dillon: You can use it just internally to answer the questions or you can actually use it, you know, just as a as a guideline whenever you're laying out the change to the team or client or whoever. So, [00:33:30] um, you know, kind of if you're, if you're going to lead, lead change, well, just don't skip steps. Um, and this is where each one of these being followed will hopefully allow you to communicate the change, rally the troops. And, you know, there's going to be people that opt out, you know, and that's better for them to opt out on the front end versus you drag somebody along. Um, so that that also can kind of be said, but yeah. So [00:34:00] the four piece framework, um, the first P that you kind of have to answer is purpose. And, you know, the question to ask is, what are we changing? And I think in that purpose, what are we changing? We're DBA has done a really good job in our businesses is we have a very set mission, vision and values. And so we've done that hard work of mission, vision and values prior to [00:34:30] being introduced to the four P's. And so even though you may have to do a refinement, if you will, on the mission, vision and values, um, that has been a great filter for us in answering what are we changing? Why are we changing it and then how we're going to move about it. So first P is purpose. And the question is what are we changing?

Rachel Dillon: Yeah, it has a lot to do with value alignment within that purpose. So making sure that whatever [00:35:00] it is that you're doing, that you definitely align it with mission, vision and values, even to the point of labeling out what parts of that change directly correlate to which part of your mission, vision or values. For us, we're able to tie it back to our value. Spell out impact. And so each of those letters represents a word one of our values. And so we're able to tie it back like yes this is tying back to [00:35:30] meaningful work and people first, um, appreciation. So we can tie it specifically back to some of our core values or, um, our mission developing confidence to think and live beyond the numbers. We can tie it back to direct verbiage that are in those phrases. Um, so that we know for certain what we always like to think about too, when we are planning any kind [00:36:00] of team retreats or things like that, we'll do similar things where we're looking at, okay, what are the goals and objectives we have and what are our values? And can we directly correlate those to any kind of activities or exercises or presentations to make sure that things are aligning and that we're moving in the right direction and not just doing things for the sake of doing things. And I think that that's super important when we talk about change, um, not just changing things for [00:36:30] the sake of changing them because we're bored or somebody has something cool over here that we want to do. Um, but actually changing so that we have momentum towards whatever goals, objectives. And then ultimately our mission and vision that we're trying to move towards.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. And I know that our industry peers myself, you know, we always gravitate to changing some technology or we have up to this point now, we don't have change technology. [00:37:00] Technology has changes, right? Um, we used to be a, be a decision maker in what, what, uh, you know, software we were going to use. And now it just impacts us and we, we don't, um, so the, the first, you know that that purpose. Um, I know that where we've gotten stuck in the past is we're, we're not clear. We're very vague and we're doing that. So we don't either hurt people's feelings or we [00:37:30] aren't transparent because we don't want the conflict that comes with potential change. Right. And so I think the best thing that comes out of this purpose. Um, obviously you've got your guiding principles that have, you know, kind of aligned to determine, you know, that yes, we are changing. And then the purpose of it, um, the best thing you can do whenever you communicate is be very clear almost to the point [00:38:00] where it's not blunt, but it's, it's clear.

Marcus Dillon: Right? Um, I think I'm guilty of like wanting people to like me, uh, Internally. And, um, so being a cheerleader, not giving us as direct feedback as I can. Being vague on things like that. And I know a lot of others are like me in that sense. Um, and so you can't do that in a situation where you're [00:38:30] communicating change and you probably shouldn't even be doing that whenever you're giving, um, review comments and things like that. I think the, the clearer you are, the better it is. And, uh, as Andy Stanley would say, I think to be clear is to be kind. Uh, he uses the other to be unclear as to be unkind, but, uh, obviously the clearer you are, the kinder you are. And so if you really want to leave people in a better place and you want to be kind to them, uh, being very direct and being [00:39:00] able to separate out emotion from big conversations like change management will go a lot further than being vague and being wanted to be liked by others.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah, we have an interesting dynamic because we are married and we can, you know, call each other out very easily. Um, help encourage. Right. Not call each other out. Help encourage each other. And so, um, but a lot of times I know [00:39:30] we will ask each other, what were you trying to say? Because this is what came across and it was more about not being direct enough that then it just became a little confusing. Like, oh, I don't think people understand that that's exactly what you want them to do. We should just say, do this on this date in this manner, right? Instead of like beating around the bush or, um, just kind of like if, if you'd like, you could do something, you know, and using some, uh, very [00:40:00] ambiguous words there instead of just being very directive like. And I think people, I appreciate it now that I don't have this as much. Um, but a lot of times people do just like like, just tell me what you expect. Just tell me what you need me to do or want me to do. And when if you give me clear parameters, most of the time people are going to stick to exactly what you've asked them. And so, um, I think that that's appreciated, especially when people are super busy, they don't want to figure it out. They want, they [00:40:30] don't want 20 options. Just give me 1 or 2 and then let me do it. Um, because I just want to do it and move on most of the time. And so I think that that's also something that's very helpful to the people who are receiving the communication is making it a little more direct maybe than you feel comfortable with.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. And I think, um, maybe not everybody is as fortunate as us. I think we've surrounded ourselves with people of a certain, you know, high caliber to where [00:41:00] they do say that. And it's like, just, just tell me what you want and tell me how to change, how to do it. Um, you know, even myself, I don't like to be told how to change. You know, I think with with this move, we started going, uh, back to like group fitness classes. And we're doing some, you know, group workouts at 45 here. And there's one coach in particular and she always like is correcting me and I'm like, hey, get the hell out of here. You know, it's like, why are you bothering me? Like, I don't [00:41:30] care if my form is bad. I don't care if my back is going to, you know, break like I don't need your comments. Right. And so I think it's, it's also knowing your team members or whoever you're communicating change to well enough that they're open, um, to the feedback and to the conversation about change.

Rachel Dillon: Oh my gosh, I have to tell you, I forgot to tell you, but I was going to tell you today. I think the reason that she is helping your [00:42:00] form or different things is because you're clearly lifting more than anyone else in the room. And so she's just making sure she, this, this particular coach is going to school to be a physical therapist. And so she's just trying to ensure that you don't get hurt. And I think that's why she pays more attention to your, you know, to you and what you're doing versus kind of everybody else who's, you know, just there for a good time. Like, let's just get through the workout and move on. So I think that that's also part of it. Don't, [00:42:30] don't hate her so much.

Marcus Dillon: Well, I, I'm unfortunate you said that I lift more than everybody else. I appreciate that, but it's also if she really was smart and wanted job security, she would let me hurt myself. And then she would give me, you know, physical therapy to nurse me back to health.

Rachel Dillon: So that's why you made that's why you make the big bucks advising, uh, entrepreneurs, right?

Marcus Dillon: Exactly.

Rachel Dillon: I was just like.

Marcus Dillon: She should tell everybody bad form. And then she'd have her work cut out for her and plenty of plenty of things to do.

Rachel Dillon: Job security, [00:43:00] for sure. Okay. First piece was purpose.

Marcus Dillon: Second is before we move on, I would just say you kind of laid the foundation, But, you know, just wrapping up that first P, if you can't clearly say what's changing, the team will default to what their comfort level is. And so if you leave ambiguous statements, vagueness, all that good stuff, like they're going to gravitate to doing as little as possible to be a successful change. [00:43:30] So. All right. Um, so the second P is picture and this is where it gets fun because picture is actually you can paint the picture of what success actually looks like. And so obviously you've determined or we've determined in this situation, hey, we're going to make this change. This is what success looks like. All the fun stuff that goes into visioning out what the future [00:44:00] will look like and what your life could look like, whether it's software, software implementation, whether its team structure, whatever, that could be less clients because you've exited all your C and D clients.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. And I think that this is sometimes where we miss communicate or don't communicate this P um, what does success look like in the end? Sometimes we tell why. A lot of times we tell how we're going [00:44:30] to do it, or at least how we're going to start. We don't always paint the full picture of what does success look like at the end, which is super important if people know where we're trying to get and what success actually looks like. Um, if not told, they kind of feel like they're just throwing darts and hoping one sticks and hoping one hits in the right spot. Um, and again, just goes back to clarity, [00:45:00] uh, of communication and sharing the full picture. We all know we've been successful. If this happens, and I think that that just helps people to really internalize what we're actually trying to do and why we're doing it, because a lot of times that success is really it's the end result of what we're trying to do. And it makes that why become more clear?

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. Yeah. [00:45:30] And I think this is where you can actually start to invite team members in. But before you do, um, you have to paint that picture, right? So it's, hey, this is why we're changing. This is what it's going to look like. Here is the benefits of what we're thinking about. Um, you know, let's just take team structure. Somebody that wanted to implement a team of three and kind of move to a service based team serving clients consistently throughout the year versus [00:46:00] just incoming calls, whoever's available, work on that client. You know, all that fun stuff. So, um, you can communicate, hey, these are this is the highest, the highest level of service that we're committed to. This is how you're going to work. This is the benefits of that structure, whether it's your capacity. You don't have to work overtime anymore. Your capacity is freed up to maybe accept new clients. If that's the goal, uh, or your capacity is freed up to take time [00:46:30] off. Um, and ultimately, hey, we're hoping for a better client experience. All of those things can be measured through NPS scores, through internal team member scores, through time data, whatever you want it to be. So, um, what does the firm look like after the change? You know, it's that snapshot in time past the change and, um, something that we've done as we've rolled out changes that have made a very big impact is [00:47:00] doing the optimist pessimist game. And so you want to talk a little bit about optimist. Optimist, pessimist and how we've used that to communicate change to the team.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. We typically use it when we are communicating things that may have mixed reactions. So things that may impact people differently or that people just may understand differently. As far as when we're discussing [00:47:30] any, any kind of change, but really anything that's going on within the firm. And so we used optimist, pessimist at one of our retreats. This is something that we use in person. It could be used also virtually as far as like in breakout rooms or something, because the idea is to pair people up and make one of the people will be the optimist, and one of the people will be the pessimist. The optimist job is they have to come [00:48:00] up with at least 1 or 2 things good about what was just shared. The pessimist has to come up with at least 1 or 2 negative things about what was just shared, so they it forces them, depending on how you're naturally wired, either to think about what was just said positive, or it forces you to think about things from the negative impact that it could have. If [00:48:30] if you can't really see anything, right. If you're thinking, oh, this is a great idea, I don't know why we didn't do this sooner. It forces you to come up with something. And what both of those do when you have people sharing both the positives and the negatives, typically those are things that would be shared off line.

Rachel Dillon: So when people are talking maybe in the hall after a team meeting or when people are chatting, um, privately on teams [00:49:00] during a team meeting and sharing their true feelings. Because you've given permission to say something that could be negative, either about the idea or about the results of that idea, or about the individual impact. You're just opening up permission for people to share any thoughts that they might have about it, even if they're negative. And then that way those can be addressed. And we do these in person. It's really impactful in person because you can address those right? Then not [00:49:30] necessarily that you're shutting it down and saying, no, our way is the best way, but at least you get to hear it and think like, we didn't even consider that somebody, you know, might think in that direction or along those lines or, yes, we've thought about that and here's what we're going to do kind of to make sure that nothing negative happens. Um, and so that's been really helpful. I know other firms have used it other than just ours. And again, a lot of times people won't [00:50:00] speak up if you don't explicitly give them permission to say, you know, something that's popped into their head that's negative.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah, no, it's really good. And I think this also, if there's something that's shared, whenever the group comes back together that needs clarification, it's like, no, no, no, that's not that's not the change. Right? Like you can step into that and actually speak to it in the moment versus people kind of coming up with their own ideas on the side or in the parking [00:50:30] lot or in the chat rooms, wherever that, that conversation happened. So, um, it gives you the immediate ability to address any miscommunication or, you know, just telephone game that could happen. Um, throughout that. And then the second thing within, you know, pictures, you continue to have to paint that picture and repeat it over and over again. And like, this is where as we were preparing for this conversation and the topic. Um, it's like, [00:51:00] I don't know that I've even said lead change, create impact since we had our team retreat or, you know, in certain circles at the collective gather event. And it's like, I just need to, you know, really repeat that as much as possible because then I start to believe it. I need to repeat it to myself, and then I need to repeat it to the leadership. And the leadership can continue to say, this is why we're accepting new clients, is to lead those new clients through the change that their businesses are going to have, [00:51:30] and obviously impact them for the better.

Marcus Dillon: The internally, the change that we're doing right to lead and do everything that we can. And even if you take something as simple as as a family, hey, we want to go on vacation. We've determined the why. We want to, we want to be somebody that travels and have new experiences. So we're going to take a vacation. And then the picture, you paint the picture, right? Like you tell the kids, hey, we're going to Disneyland. What? Disney World? No, [00:52:00] that's Florida. No, we're going to California. And so like, whatever that could be, like you've determined that that is your destination. So the third P is actually plan. And that's when you that's when you actually answer, how do we get there? And so we've determined that we're taking a vacation. We determined that we're going to Disneyland. How do we get there? Are we flying? Are we driving? Are we going fast? Are we going slow? Are we taking scenic route? Are we visiting grandma along the way? Um, so during [00:52:30] the plan phase is where you actually have to break out the vision into executable steps. And so if you think about it, like taking a trip to California, to Disneyland, you have to put in the mile markers or the stops along the way.

Marcus Dillon: That way people can actually visualize going on that journey with you as far as change is happening. And so what actually needs to happen with all of the change that's coming out. If it's new systems and tools, adoption, pricing [00:53:00] changes, upskilling, training, that could happen, which that's very relevant to the world we live in today with, you know, technology being to do some of the low hanging fruit or steps that maybe you have team members take point on today. How are you upskilling those team members to benefit them as change continues to occur? So those are the discussion points to really hit on as you're as you're communicating change, as you're going through this third P, which is plan. Um, and what I would say again, [00:53:30] uh, to be clear is to be kind. Avoid overcomplicating it, uh, or even just waiting for the perfect plan. Um, you know, we hear the perfect time to go on vacation. The perfect time to have kids. Yeah. That doesn't exist. Right. And so if you keep waiting on perfect, uh, conditions, you're never going to implement the change that needs to happen.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah, absolutely. I think here in the plan phase as well. Um, definitely assigning or um, [00:54:00] having people raise their hand of who will be responsible and then also assigning dates. So time specific. So when we think about smart goals or um, ideas like that, but definitely having who is responsible and when is it due by are also very helpful during that plan phase that the team knows that that's coming. Um, and it just helps again, it helps provide some certainty even though, you know, like it's, it's a plan, it's not necessarily [00:54:30] what's going to happen.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. And obviously each, each one of these, each P you dedicate the appropriate amount of time for. So, uh, you've invited the team in to get feedback. You can actually take some of that feedback and appoint leaders, appoint change agents within your firm to help navigate the change and help lead the change. You don't have to do it all, or your leadership team doesn't have to do it all. And then there's ownership in whatever change is occurring. And that's what we would highly [00:55:00] recommend. Um, so during that plan phase, you really want to kind of lay out not only the full roadmap, but just what is that first step? And then what does success look like along the way? So if we made it to that mile marker, if we made it to that first stop to actually stop, celebrate, regroup, and then get back in the car and keep going down that journey. Um, I think, you know, a simple plan executed beats a perfect plan that's been delayed. And someone probably [00:55:30] way smarter has said that in a different way. Um, but I would just, I would start after you have buy in, after you have vision, after you've kind of got everything in those first three P's knocked down. And then that last P, uh, is part. So that's where you actually going back to the previous questions we used to ask, what's my role in this is the question that most team members have.

Marcus Dillon: Am I just a passenger along this drive as we go throughout [00:56:00] this road trip to go to Disneyland or I'm actually driving a leg? Am I the person that's filling up the car? Am I supposed to bring snacks? What are all those things that I'm responsible for? Um, and I think every person just needs clarity on their role in the change. Um, and you've laid out the different things. So this ultimately now you're getting to a very specific individual approach in, as part of the change management. And even recently within [00:56:30] DBA with some of the acquisitions, uh, the way that we rolled this out and then, you know, this last piece of communication was, hey, your role in this is we want you to continue to serve your clients that you're already serving well and you're not getting additional new clients from this acquisition. You're not having to relearn a process or a new technology or anything like that. So as simple as, hey, you're part in this is no part in this. It needs to be said. In the opposite of that is you're [00:57:00] part of this. Like you're a big part of this. You're like, you're holding this together. Like you're, you're going to be instrumental in this change. So either way, everyone on the team needs to know what their role is.

Rachel Dillon: I think that if not, if not said directly to each person, not necessarily that it has to be a one on one conversation, but with like roles or with like people communicated exactly what is staying the same for them, changing for them, how it's impacting [00:57:30] them, and giving time for them to process and ask questions. If it's not said they're going on past experience. So they're going based off of either what happened the last time that a similar change was made in the firm, or what happened at a previous firm or a previous job in their family. You never know what past experiences that they're bringing into it or the lens that they're looking through, which, again, you might, you know, as a leader might [00:58:00] wonder, like, why are they so against this? This is going to be good for them. But their only experience that they've ever had turned out horrible and was chaotic or maybe detrimental to their job or their productivity. And so it's really important, again, just to have that open line of communication and that dialog where team members know exactly and hear from a leader, not in an email, right? Because again, open to interpretation, [00:58:30] so able to have a back and forth conversation and really feel good about what it is that they're being asked to do and what their part is.

Marcus Dillon: Cool. Well, I think, you know, as we've navigated through the four P's and are adopting it for DBA and collective. As we navigate change. Uh, hopefully we're better on the other side. So just as we close today to kind of recap, um, you [00:59:00] know, the, the first P is purpose, what are we changing? That second one is picture. What does success look like? The third plan, how do we get there? And then fourth part. What's my role in this. And I'm as guilty as anybody. Um, I want to initiate the change. And I want all the fruit from the success of that change. I don't want to live through the change. I want to just speed through it or delegate it. Right. Um, so I would say in the [00:59:30] moment leaders to be the best you can. Obviously, you have to be in it with your, with your team, uh, whether it's participating or making sure that they're healthy and fed and all that fun stuff as they're navigating the change that you essentially chose to do that, you chose to introduce, uh, or were a part of introducing. So, um, anything else, you know, based on the four piece framework, some of the use cases and navigating [01:00:00] the technology changes, uh, anything that you wanted to close with as well?

Rachel Dillon: No, I think we've hit it all. The one thing I will say is that sometimes we feel like as leaders that we've already said that people already know, we've already said it, but until we're when we are sick of saying it is probably like the first time that the hearers are actually hearing it, right? Like they've, they've maybe heard it, they've [01:00:30] maybe were listening. Um, maybe we're busy and forgot. But once it is, we are just like sick of saying the same thing over and over again is when they've actually received it, processed it and can carry it out. So if you haven't communicated that like we have not lead change, create impact, the whole reason that we are looking at making changes and improvements and refinements again, is just to have a bigger impact with our team [01:01:00] and clients and the accounting industry as a whole.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. Well, I think this has been a great conversation. Uh, it's what we're leading through, uh, over at DBA and collective. So thanks for leading the conversation and we'll see you on the next one.

Rachel Dillon: All right. Thanks.

Rachel Dillon: Thanks for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed the conversation and want to learn more, be sure to visit collective dot CPA. You can [01:01:30] schedule a meeting directly with me, Rachel, by clicking on the Contact Us page. Be sure to subscribe, like, and share so you don't miss any future episodes. We look forward to connecting with you soon.