Who's Really the BOSS?

There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.

Rachel Dillon: This is Who's really the boss. A podcast for accounting firm leaders who want to grow with intention and lead with purpose. I'm Rachel Dolan, and along with my husband, Marcus Dolan, we share real stories from our accounting firm, Practical firm growth strategies, and the tools you need to lead your clients, your team, and your life well. Welcome back to another [00:00:30] episode of Who's Really the Boss podcast.

Marcus Dillon: Hey, thanks for hanging back.

Rachel Dillon: We need to give an update on the girls real quick before we jump into this episode. So let's start with Kenley because she's actually home at the moment. So, uh, we moved to Fort Worth. So now she is only about an hour and 15 minutes from our home and she is visiting. We are recording just before Easter, so she is visiting for the Easter weekend. But we [00:01:00] were fortunate that she gets to come on a Wednesday and leave on a Tuesday. So she'll be here much longer than a long weekend. Um, which we're super excited about because she has been quite the busy girl over the last few weeks. And so today she currently got a job offer for the summer. So that's, that's interesting and very exciting. She will be studying abroad in Paris. Florence and Milan are the three locations [00:01:30] that she'll go for the first part of the summer, the end of May till the end of June, and then from there, she would like to do a second semester of summer classes and also work at a fabric store. So of course she came home and immediately went shopping, um, for a new project, a new dress that she needs to make. And at the fabric store, the owner offered her a job and said that really she only would need to work one day a week [00:02:00] as like her minimum. And so she feels like she can maybe make that work. And she was super encouraged by that interaction. So that was fun.

Marcus Dillon: That's awesome. The, uh, the job prospect is always great, especially if it can kind of offset some of the funding that's needed from the parents. So appreciate.

Rachel Dillon: And if you're, if you're a new listener, um, she is definitely our spender. She just has a lot of ideas and a lot of energy. And she loves to [00:02:30] always do something. And so she thankfully puts a lot of that into making things and creating things. But also those things need supplies that she has to buy. And so she just picked up extra hours at one of her jobs that she has at one of at her local church in Waco. And then also this summer prospect job is great because that one is going to end when the school year ends. So, um. Yeah. So that's kindling. All right. [00:03:00] Update on Avery.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. Avery. Um, yeah, she finished, I guess her swim season as a freshman at big 12 and I'm. Not sure. Did we already give an update on that?

Rachel Dillon: But I can't remember.

Marcus Dillon: But she, she did good as a freshman. She placed third. Um, so she made podium uh, on her 500. She's a mid to long distance freestyle swimmer at TCU. Um, and then the, uh, she actually finaled in the 200, which she wasn't expecting to do. I [00:03:30] think she ended up like middle of the pack, um, in there. And then in the first heat.

Rachel Dillon: I think most people have the question of, so is she just done? What does she do after the season ends? She had two weeks off the week after big 12 and then the week of spring break. But then they start back to practices that are basically the same as before. So they still practice twice a day. That might be swimming twice a day, or [00:04:00] that might be a swim and a weightlifting session. So I think Wednesdays they only have once a day, and Saturdays they only have one practice a day, but six days a week they're still practicing. They change from a short course, which is 25 yards to a long course pool 50m, which 50m in long course is what they do at Olympics. So from April through August, they'll do training in this long course, and she's required to do meets [00:04:30] that aren't affiliated with TCU, but help them to continue up like practicing, making progress and racing. And so that is what she is currently doing. So no, she doesn't get much time off in August. She'll get another week or two off. But she has learned now that she doesn't take that full time off. So she is still. She will do a lot less than what she does normally for practice during those weeks, but she will still get in the [00:05:00] pool 2 or 3 times, and she will still lift weights twice during her off weeks. So yeah, lots of work um, for her, but both girls are doing great and we're excited we get to spend time with both of them this weekend.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. It'll be, it'll be a good time. So, um, well, that was the update on the girls. I know that as we kind of laid out, uh, the conversation that we wanted to have today, uh, we've heard from a lot of people who know about the DBA kind of team of three model that [00:05:30] we have, you know, experimented with and really landed on as our team structure within DBA. And a lot of the content, a lot of the resources and collective are, are maybe aimed at a team structure. Uh, team of three is a good example of a team structure. I know that other firms have changed things and made it their own, but ultimately are using the scaffolding, if you will, of the team of three. So we just wanted to kind of speak into that and speak into how we navigated [00:06:00] putting that team structure in place. What it really looked like on our side, what the timeline looked like. And then also, as we've helped firms implement that team structure, where we've seen successes, where we've seen challenges and just talk through like, you can't just like throw a grenade in your firm and walk away and think it's going to be great. Um, it actually, it does require some intention and some time, uh, to see the benefits of a, of a new team structure.

Rachel Dillon: So before we jump into, um, [00:06:30] the phases of the transition to a team of three from whatever current team structure looks like, let's talk just for quickly, briefly about how the team of three came about for DBA. Um, what were some of the, I guess, issues or constraints that we were running into that made us even look at our team structure.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. Um, so if this, if this resonates with you, maybe lean in. Um, we [00:07:00] did not know where work was. Uh, even though we had project management software that told us, you know, who it was, whose desk it was on or what the status was of it. We just didn't know like where it really was like what people were waiting on. And we had to solve for that. If someone was out of, uh, you know, out of town or they needed to take time off or they left the firm. We also needed to solve for, uh, whenever that [00:07:30] happens, whenever there's not a consistent team in place to serve that client. I think the other pieces that we saw were silos were starting to form. Uh, we actually thought we were doing something great and we introduced, uh, an individual tax team and a business tax team and then a accounting team. And so all of those three silos, the accounting would be done and then passed the baton to the business tax team. The business [00:08:00] tax team would do their thing and do tax returns, and then they would pass things over to the individual tax team. And that was what we thought was a good plan. Uh, but what happened in the meantime was business tax team would kind of be busy a certain time of year, uh, really relying on the accounting team to get them financials, but had no insight into what was on that team's plates and what they were juggling all the way to the right. You'd have the individual side, which was [00:08:30] tend to sit in their idle or waiting on, uh, K one and had no, no way to push or to be, you know, to, to have grace, uh, of what is on that other team members side.

Marcus Dillon: So it was just a lot of disconnect, a lot of frustration. We built up walls that we didn't intend to build. And so the other piece was just, everybody was reporting to me as the main leader. And, um, I was definitely the bottleneck. The challenge I had to have eyes on most everything before it did [00:09:00] go out to a client. It had to be my voice on the commentary or my actually having the phone call or the sit down with that client. So we had to solve for that, mainly as our org chart was revolving all around myself as the main leader. And we've seen that in other firms where it may just not be one person, it may be two partners or it may be, uh, any level of leader, but it is definitely multiple people going straight to that person. And that's what we would call a bottleneck. [00:09:30] And, um, it was, it was interesting to live through that and now look back, uh, because in those moments, we were creating things out of good intentions, but it was just the, the side effects of those structures that we were developing were not good for scale. They were not good for balance and capacity. So we had to back up and say, okay, what does it really look like to serve our clients really well? What does it look like to know [00:10:00] where work is at? Like where the status of that work is at any given point in the firm and not have the reliance on just one individual to get that whole project done. And so those are some of the frustrations that ultimately led us to stopping and taking like a step back to say, okay, what are we really doing here?

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. And the, I would say the effects of that weren't just [00:10:30] felt within the team. The effects of that were felt with clients as well. Clients really didn't know who their point person was. So when they called, they would likely just ask for Marcus or they would say, I don't know who's working on my tax return or I don't know who's working on my accounting, which for me and probably for you, that didn't feel very good to have people feel like uncertain about. They don't know who their team is or who they're communicating with. Because our team knew then our [00:11:00] team knew those people and who they were working with, but they had no idea because they had so many different people to talk through. Also, just things would get lost in translation from person to person to person. But what clients were really wanting, they wanted fast responses. And that was hard when you were relying on gathering up information from multiple people. And again, just didn't know how busy they were, what [00:11:30] their capacity was to talk with them, get their answers. They wanted for sure, proactive advice. And at that point, we really didn't have a way to make that happen on a consistent basis. And so that's really where the team of three came in. Is that the team kind of frustrations, the negative client experience that we were starting to notice? Um, because what we had set up was not scaling with the amount of growth that we were experiencing. [00:12:00] So team of three, are we ready to talk through? Let's, let's just can we quickly go through what are those three positions?

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. The way that DBA defines the core team of three, uh, client service manager is the base of that team. And they are, um, an accountant, a bookkeeper, somebody with just good experience in, in our world, they don't have to be degreed. They typically are working parents, uh, that want, you know, some, [00:12:30] some a career that gives them flexibility to also be present with their family. And so with the team of three, we are able to review the capacity, the agreement between the team member and IBA and fill up their plate with 85% capacity, and that way they know exactly what they're working on from week to week. And there's we're trying to minimize surprises as much as possible [00:13:00] at the CSM level. Um, and that's that, you know, stepping back, that's like the consistency, there's always going to be maybe an onboarding or something. And that's why we built in that additional 15%, um, of just capacity there. Um, so CSM is that layer, uh, we've had some friends call them different things, cams, whatever, um, different acronyms. The next level up is client controller. So client controller, the way that we think about that is [00:13:30] that's somebody with tax experience because we do tax in DBA. Um, so we see that client controller as tax. And when we hire for client controllers, we actually post the job as a tax manager, somebody that has seen both accounting and done closeouts. Maybe they've done janitorial work, if you call it that, like just the cleanup that goes all into year end and they can produce clean financials to either issue, or they can [00:14:00] prepare a business tax return and then also advise on personal and business tax related matters.

Marcus Dillon: Um, so that's the client controller. Um, do not post that you're hiring for a client controller. You'll get all types of variety in the same for client service manager, you'll get non accounting people applying for that because they think it's just a service related role. And then the next level up is that client CFO. And so client CFO, they're spending most [00:14:30] of their time managing the rest of the team, the client relationship if needed. They're able to have larger business strategy, tax related conversations with clients as needed or consistently throughout the year. So we try to look for consistency, but we also don't shy away from if someone's an annual touchpoint for that CFO and saying, hey, you already used your meeting this one year. Like those people, you know, [00:15:00] definitely want to serve them as best we can. So the client CFOs are, um, you know, really plugging into clients, whether it's meeting needed monthly, quarterly or annually, uh, they're driving some of that future projection cash flow dashboard conversations that exist. They do have, uh, experience in tax or accounting. They've owned business particularly is always helpful because then they have some risk tolerance and can connect [00:15:30] with the entrepreneurial client. So I think those are the different roles. So client service manager, CSM client controller and then client CFO.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. And so really the goals of that model or grouping team members into groups of three was really to increase collaboration, um, consistency and then capacity for work also to layer in some overlap [00:16:00] or duplication of responsibilities. Just meaning that if a team member needs to be out, the client is still going to be fully served and their team is available. We'll say to answer specific questions and not have to say, oh, well, they're out. They'll have to get back to you. Or if one team member is having a busier time of year or season than the other team members on that team of three can help take care of a client request or [00:16:30] respond to a communication. So not relying on one person anymore, that holds the majority of the knowledge and information of a client is super helpful for a number of reasons, but when we think about it, we're thinking about from a being out type situation and or a turnover situation where you have, again, you're going to have consistency for that client where you still have, um, a deep knowledge base within that team of three. [00:17:00] Even if one member has to transition for one reason or another.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. And, um, whether it's turnover through somebody leaving, all of that's inevitable. Um, people have children, people move away relocation if that's your, if you're physically present, that's more of a risk than remote. Um, but just you have to prepare for that and you don't want, you don't want to disrupt the client service so much because of one of those things that's just going to happen. You just have to plan for [00:17:30] it. And so when we looked at team structure and we looked at the team of three as the answer to that, really our goals were to collaborate across the team, you know, kind of have this best, uh, best service experience across DBA as a whole. We didn't want, you know, just one person to stand out as like, yeah, that's the rock star of DBA and they're going to continue like to get the best or the most complex clients, and they're just always going to be there because what [00:18:00] we found, what we found ourselves doing is you're start, you start comparing your team members to other team members and then your, you know, your rock stars, you load up, um, and they become burned out and then they leave. Um, and so it's just a cycle there that you would see. So we just wanted to spread, uh, the work throughout the team.

Marcus Dillon: So with that, we were able to, with that structure, we were able to do that a little bit better, um, clarity on roles. So not only from the client side, as you mentioned, to say, hey, like [00:18:30] this, this is your team, this is who you would call or email. Um, but also clarity of role in what each team member is responsible for. So a client service manager is not responsible for building out a cash flow dashboard, right? And so I think it's giving us comfort at the team level to say, hey, this is my role. This is what I'm going to be measured on as far as success in my career and being able to build upon that. So clarity was real [00:19:00] big. Consistency that you have built in timelines, you're able to do the work throughout the month, throughout the quarter, throughout the year. Uh, as we've acquired, as we've worked with other firms, uh, what we see is a very negative thing with firms that want to lean into cash or advisory. They actually don't do any cash or advisory during tax season. They catch up on it after tax season, which is not what you should be [00:19:30] doing. Um, you should, you should have the bandwidth and the capacity to serve those clients consistently all year long, including tax season. And so if you're if you're signing somebody up for recurring ongoing financial support, uh, which is what most people do in CAS, you have to do that consistently.

Marcus Dillon: And I think as an industry, we've kind of either gotten lazy or just always gotten by with saying, oh, but it's tax season and clients kind of give you a pass, but you're, [00:20:00] you're going to have to hold yourself to a better, um, better degree of, uh, of service than that. Um, and then the other thing that we looked for was capacity for proactive work. Um, so for prospects, uh, we wanted to build in teams that had capacity to accept new clients. Once you kind of get into a 2.0 or 3.0 phase of this team structure, you can actually build niche specialties if you don't already have that within your, your firm. If you have multiple industries, you can actually [00:20:30] build teams around certain industries, build certain legs of pods with that industry or, or similar industries. And that's what we've done with DBA. We kind of built out the team structure to solve for collaboration, clarity, consistency and capacity. And phase two, we started to refine phase three. We started refining even more. Um, but that that's what happens when roles are clearly defined. The team can actually work together to provide the best level of service possible. [00:21:00]

Rachel Dillon: Yeah, I think that's a great overview. And we have webinars on team of three. If someone hasn't heard about this structure yet or wants more information on that. But today I really want us to focus on what does it look like to transition to this. So we've thought about this and the way that DBA transitioned to this was really in three main phases. And so let's talk through phase one. If you're going from not [00:21:30] a team of three, not any part of it, you're just hearing about it today and you want to take, let's say, the example of how we were, where you were, the center and everybody, no matter what their responsibility was reported directly to you. Um, and set up a team of three structure where there is some of these benefits of having this overlap and collaboration and support through the team of three.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. Um, once we identified, we had the [00:22:00] problem. Once we landed on that, we wanted to have team structure be the solution to the problem. It was real easy for me to know that others could serve clients better than me being overwhelmed and trying to serve everybody. Um, so I think it comes with a maturity. Um, maybe not everybody's there. They think that they can do it all, but in, in my place of exhaustion, trying to be everything to everybody. Um, I just, I knew I couldn't continue down that path, [00:22:30] let alone continue to grow and scale, um, Down. You know, as we as we continue to own and operate a firm. So, um, we, we started with the client relationship. So by, by knowing who our clients are and determining who we wanted to serve, we were able to see who their team members were, who was already connected to that client. And then that, that was probably the first phase is we started [00:23:00] to kind of identify, okay, this team member serves these clients, and then this team member serves those clients. So we're able to take that client approach. Um, at the same time, we looked at our team and did a kind of did a assessment, if you will, based on where team members would fall under those three roles. And beginning, I was the only client CFO. So it was really [00:23:30] easy for me to shift from the bull's eye of the org chart up to the top of the pod like pyramid.

Marcus Dillon: Because I was still going to be involved on the clients, but just in a different structure. And so that's when we actually moved to adding a layer of middle management, if you will, the client controller and determining, okay, the role, whether it's CSM or client controller. It was easy to [00:24:00] put certain people in those roles, but we did have some team members who were kind of on the line as far as where they would fall, and we didn't want to we didn't want to force people into a certain role. So then we had to have conversations with, hey, we've determined the roles. Here's the the guidelines of each role, here's what each one would do. What would you like to do? Where do you feel most comfortable? And some of that was coaching. Some of that was, hey, I see you here right now based on like where your family is [00:24:30] and where your commitment to the firm is, um. But that doesn't mean you can't move up or down depending on where that's going to be. And I, I think some of the mistakes that we've made, um, in, in the past are keeping people on the line for too long. Um, and so they clearly weren't fully a client controller. They were a leg in a CSM and a client controller for just a little bit too long. And it wasn't, it didn't turn out. Um, I think is [00:25:00] the end goal of that conversation.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. I think that, um, I think it was really important that you said we looked at the skill set and then we also talked with team members if they had both skills bookkeeping, accounting, financial accounting, and also tax experience and find out which do they prefer. What we thought about in this team of three, if we could, if we had a position that didn't require necessarily a tax background [00:25:30] or a CPA license or an EA certification. That role might be easier to fill. There may be more available candidates at that bookkeeping and payroll level than if we were trying to find someone who needed to be able to do both. And so that really helped us determine and then having those conversations. Um, one thing that I will share in that phase one, the conversations were definitely, um, about [00:26:00] adding another layer between a team member and you. So there were team members that had been with us a long time and just thinking about they were leaders within our firm. They were experienced and degreed and very, uh, very good accountants. And so to think about them, if you think about it in a vertical manner, they're the bottom. And so really having that conversation of what does this look [00:26:30] like? What is your role actually? And they really do have a lot of client interaction, um, on a weekly basis. At minimum, they have client interactions. So they really do still hold a relationship with clients. They definitely have a very important part in the team of three. Um, everything really comes from them. And so there were a lot of things, but also looking at where can they be leaders in other areas, whether that's onboarding [00:27:00] new team members, um, with training and mentoring or just related things like that. Or did they become a subject matter expert in something? So looking at ways for them to still lead, even if they are most comfortable, most suited, or their season of life allows them to be best suited for a client service manager role versus a controller or a CFO.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. So, so phase one was definitely building [00:27:30] the scaffolding, the structure, if you will. And if you think about a pyramid with multiple columns, then you've got the next layer up, multiple client controllers, then the next layer up one CFO in our case, but you could have multiple CFOs as well. And that's really that was the structure for the CAS side of our business where we were doing accounting, tax and advisory. And so this conversation may not translate over to tax solely [00:28:00] right now. Um we have something there, but it will be another conversation. So I would say right now it's team structure focused on accounting payroll tax and advisory.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. Let's talk anything else for phase one. Or are you ready to go on to phase two?

Marcus Dillon: I would say phase one. It was just like I said, building that scaffolding. Um, and there was just a variety. Like it was really just those three. Like if you think about it [00:28:30] as like a bar chart, a sideways bar chart, everybody was a CSM or a controller or a CFO.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. All right. Phase two was next. After after getting people into clearly defined roles, what was next?

Marcus Dillon: So yeah, after we got people into clearly defined roles, um, we, we noticed, uh, so much inefficiency and some people that have adopted a team of three model, um, question it's like, [00:29:00] well, why? Like, it seems like people are having conversations to have conversations and yes, like, hopefully that leads to better client service. But whenever we saw engagements not becoming as profitable as they were, we knew that was inefficiencies or ineffectiveness on our side. And so the second phase was that team structure and actually aligning teams to work together like the same people to work together because there was there was too much gap. [00:29:30] Um, both in delay of work going out the door. Um, it was either stuck in a process somewhere. And there's also additional time being spent on projects that hadn't been done before. And part of that was maybe we introduced this whole other role. Like we put a client controller in engagement that never had a client controller before. And so we had to allocate budget to that and maybe even reprice it, um, in [00:30:00] the next time that it was available because we were adding more value. Um, that's a different conversation that you kind of have to have with a client. Um, but we, we definitely saw budgets increase the way that we solve for that was we looked at how many different teams of three we had. And I think even with myself as maybe the only client CFO at that time, we had close to 40 different teams of three within our team of 12 [00:30:30] or 10 FTEs. At that time, um, because you would have Csms working with multiple CFOs controllers, you would have controllers all reporting to me.

Marcus Dillon: I don't know if Leslie was already in the CFO seat, um, at that time, but it was close to 40 different teams at. And what we had to do was we had to say no. Um, we're going to align the clients to work within the same team of three. And then we looked at industry, we [00:31:00] looked at relationship with the clients. And whenever we did that reorg, um, it was, it was challenging because you didn't want to hurt anybody's feelings. Just like when you place somebody into a role, you didn't want, um, a client to feel like they were getting moved around or shuffled. So we, we committed to only doing it once internally. We didn't communicate that to a client, but we only wanted to do this reorg once. And in doing so, we looked at the team members serving that client. [00:31:30] And if we could have two of the same team members remain consistent, those are the two team members that would stay. And if not, it would have to be a really good reason to change out two team members and only keep one. And the the excuse or the reason why would be if there was just one team member that really had that strong relationship and that overrode the, the two. Um, so that happened in a March or [00:32:00] in April. Um, and we kind of rolled it out. We did all that. And then after tax season, then we actually pushed through the reorg and communicated to clients. Um, and on the other side of that, clients were okay. You know, I think they, they said, okay, we know you have what's in best in our best interest.

Marcus Dillon: We trust you. Uh, I didn't lose my person. Right? If that was Amata or Molly, you know, great. I still have Molly. I still have Amata, whoever that was. Um, but yeah, it was, it was one of those where it was like, okay, [00:32:30] well, that was easier than we thought with the client, but we internally, what we saw happen is once we align those teams and assigned clients to those teams, we saw accountability improve. We, we saw controllers know exactly what was on the plate of the CSM and being able to help them, uh, move things along or pick it up and push it out if needed. We also saw, um, CSM just being able to communicate better with client controllers [00:33:00] and client CFOs. Like, hey, I've got an issue. I need, I need you to help me versus I don't want to bother you. I know you're busy. So it really embraced that team goal that we had from the very beginning. And in doing so, we looked up and within a month, efficiencies had improved, budgets had have improved. And we actually had two team members that were they were good team members, probably great team members at any other [00:33:30] firm, but they just they weren't at the level that the rest of our team was. So then they stood out. And in doing the restructure, we released those two team members to find their next adventure. Um, and we were able to do all of the work that we had prior to the reorg. We continued to, to be able to do it better after the reorg with less team members.

Rachel Dillon: And additional capacity. So after a couple [00:34:00] of months, then those team members actually had enough capacity to take on clients without being overloaded with work or going above their, um, peak capacity. And so that was really helpful. And so just to, again, just to summarize that, we would have, let's say a Marta on our team working with three different controllers. So because three people are giving her work or asking her questions or requesting things from her. [00:34:30] Same with her going to all three of them during tax season. I know everyone's busy. I don't know who is best to go to first. Who do I prioritize work for? What order do I do these things in? And so there was just a lot of again, uncertainty. And so what that meant was people would just pause and, and not move forward where when it's real clear, the path is very smooth and things get done much quicker, [00:35:00] much more effectively. And so I think that, yeah, that was a good thing. Um, phase two would you say also that's where we found some verticals or phase three?

Marcus Dillon: I would say it was, it was during phase two. Um, you know, I think we were, We when we did the reorg, um, we were intentional about industry from that point on, we did look at client relationship and let client relationship kind of trump industry. [00:35:30] But, um, ultimately all the industries kind of fell in place. Uh, so we have a dental leg. Uh, we have a vet leg. We have some other medical professional services sprinkled all throughout every team. Uh, we have some construction and real estate sprinkled throughout every team because a lot of, um, a lot of our clients have owner occupied real estate. So a lot of construction and real estate go into most every team [00:36:00] and they have some element of it. And so we kept that just across the board. I would say that led into phase three. So going from phase one, setting the roles, phase two, setting the team, phase three, really refining and getting, uh, industry expertise. And then that way you can have pipeline, you can know which teams you're kind of placing prospects and clients into based on that industry vertical. We've also had, uh, now [00:36:30] in phase three, we've had industries create new legs of pod or, or teams create new legs of pod based on that industry. So, uh, in our model, we have a client, CFO, a client controller, and then, uh, two or client Csms uh, a client controller typically has two client service managers, so they may each have dental clients in this example.

Marcus Dillon: Um, and if need be, maybe someone's career path, maybe they move up [00:37:00] to controller ultimately CFO, uh, if that's their trajectory. But, um, maybe it's also that we need to create additional capacity for additional dental clients. And so we would take that client service manager, have them as the consistent bring in a client controller likely we've hired for that position. They have some experience and then that is continuing to be the dental team in that example. So that's kind of how we built [00:37:30] some additional just, um, verticals or um, efficiencies within those verticals, because those team members know exactly what to look for in dental clients. They set up their chart of accounts based on that. And we're, we're using dental as an example because it's, it's easy, but, um, it's kind of an easy one to take. So, but we've done the same thing with, um, other professional services that other medical, financial, anything, um, where we can set kind of a standard [00:38:00] chart of accounts and be able to speak to that, be able to know what to look for across different clients that are in the same industry and ultimately advise clients. Well, based on what we're seeing, because in advisory, that's what clients love. Um, they, they like it when you talk about their business, but they love it whenever you say, hey, here's what I'm seeing in the guy down the street. You don't have to say their name, but you know, it's like, hey, this is what I'm seeing in your peers.

Marcus Dillon: And now when I have advisory conversations, that's what they [00:38:30] typically ask me. Well, like, how's everybody else doing? Um, because I want to know, like, am I the only one that's going through this difficult time? Or am I not unique in this? And so those are, those are the conversations that we can have because we've done some of this in phase three. Um, phase three. The other thing that really it allowed for maybe this moves into phase four one day, is it allowed for career progression for team members? And so [00:39:00] because they know their role and they know ultimately the, the relationship between them, their family and DBA, they know how much capacity they want to give to the business and how many clients they can accept. And so some people, uh, Leslie, for example, she moved from client service manager to client controller. Now she's client, CFO and director of accounting and advisory. So, um, it's just, it gives people a clear path to move, uh, if [00:39:30] they want to do that career ladder, maybe, maybe their family priorities, their priorities in life, who they care for it. A CSM is a great place for a bit or a client controller that comes with maturity because, uh, you, you can't do it all. And just realizing that. So, but somebody like Leslie, somebody like Holly, uh, who has progressed, um, phase three, what we're seeing now come full circle is I've given away clients [00:40:00] and team members to other people that are progressing in their career.

Marcus Dillon: I did that with Leslie. I'm doing that with Holly. Uh, Leslie is doing that with Holly so Holly can shift over and build out, uh, a pod. Um, so all of that is the growth that we are seeing happen in a very intentional way. Clients are continuing to be served the same or better than they always have been. And even as I've moved from that center of the [00:40:30] bull's eye org chart over and completely handed off, hey, these are your clients now being served by a team of three that I'm not officially a part of. They know that that I'm still there, kind of hovering if I ever need to be brought in for a conversation, whether that's an internal conversation or if the client just says, hey, can Marcus sit on in on this? That doesn't happen as much as you would think. Um, because the team that we've created [00:41:00] created and the team that we've elevated, uh, are much better at those conversations than I've had. So after the client meets the team, they forget about me. Um, and so I think that's, that's the other benefit is whenever you can step back and truly see, okay, we built this. It's kind of got legs now, and I can be as involved in any one part of it as I need to be. So it's successful.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah, absolutely. And so with [00:41:30] that, we have watched team members have career development where they don't have to go outside of DBA to continue to progress in their career. We've also had the ability to scale, so grow additional teams of three and additional pods for new client growth that's coming in. Um, again, as we went to the team of three, we didn't have to mostly we didn't have to, [00:42:00] um, let go of any people. We definitely had to go out and find some missing pieces or some gaps in hire. And that is what really helped us with the team of three is having kind of a hiring roadmap and seeing when specific roles we're getting to capacity and what that looks like and who we needed to hire next. When we did the reorg, we were able to find some efficiency and capacity and some underperformers who may not have reorg [00:42:30] or no reorg. Some underperformers may not have been with the team any longer anyway, so that is definitely not the goal. The goal would be to create so much capacity that you have room to bring on those new clients you've been turning away or not responding to, because you just don't have time and being able to grow your firm. So definitely team of three is, um, with that in mind to give opportunities to team members. And then also [00:43:00] just to increase impact by being able to serve additional clients within your firm.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah, I would, I echo everything and it's been a great, you know, um, it's been a great model and structure for DB A I, we obviously share this. We have a lot of resources. If anybody wants to reach out about any of those resources, job descriptions, benchmarks, scorecards, all that fun stuff. We have those, um, they're, they're loaded into the collective community. But if something, um, is, [00:43:30] is sticking out, please reach out. Um, what I would say in closing is there were definitely phases of this. And as we've helped other firms think through this or even implement this and kind of work it to their client base and their teams, um, sometimes starting at phase three is the problem. Um, and not doing phase one and phase two. Well. And so the best firms [00:44:00] that have success with this, we've seen start with role definition and then move to defining teams and then and then, um, optimizing or refining that as they would, as they would call it. Um, and that's where that just kind of has to happen in phases. And as we've laid out today, that was what DBA did. So hopefully this has been helpful to you as well. And maybe you're stuck in phase two and [00:44:30] trying to get phase three. We would love to talk to you. Um, just because we're actively, you know, working through this ourselves as we continue to evolve and scale. Rachel, thanks for leading and we'll see you on the next.

Rachel Dillon: Thanks for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed the conversation and want to learn more, be sure to visit collective dot. You can schedule a meeting directly with me, Rachel by clicking on the Contact Us page. Be sure to subscribe, like, and share [00:45:00] so you don't miss any future episodes. We look forward to connecting with you soon.