Who's Really the BOSS?

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Rachel Dillon: Welcome to Who's Really the Boss podcast. I'm Rachel Dillon, and along with my husband, Marcus Dillon, we share the joys and challenges of leading a $3 million accounting firm together. From team structure to growth strategies, we share our leadership successes and failures so you can avoid the mistakes we have made and grow a valuable accounting firm.

Rachel Dillon: Welcome back to another episode [00:00:30] of Who's Really the Boss podcast.

Marcus Dillon: Hey, thanks for having me back.

Rachel Dillon: We are excited to have a guest with us. We have John Randolph. Welcome, John.

John Randolph: Hey, how are you guys doing? I'm excited to, uh, to be here with you guys and talk to you a little bit about your business and our business and everything going on in the staffing world as pertains to accounting.

Rachel Dillon: Absolutely.

Marcus Dillon: Thanks for being here, man.

Rachel Dillon: So, John, give us a little self intro because we actually have come to know you a lot more uh, really recently. So give [00:01:00] a self intro of who you are and you can share as much or as little as you'd like.

John Randolph: So that's that's always kind of a loaded question. Um, husband 28 years. Uh, dad of two girls that are amazing young women. Um, my wife and I used to joke when our kids were little and say that, you know, you're doing a halfway decent job if other adults enjoy being around your kids. And, uh, now that our kids are grown, we get grief when we don't [00:01:30] invite them somewhere. And so we've changed that saying and flipped it a little bit and say, you know, you did half a decent job if your adult children enjoy being around you. So we, we, uh, we enjoy the fact that we get to be around our little girls. I say little girls, grown women now, but, uh, I've owned a consulting group. Uh, as it sits as the business it is today for eight years. We focus strictly on partnering with what I refer to as locally owned, small to Small to midsize CPA firms, advisory firms and consulting firms. So [00:02:00] love the niche that we're in. Love the people that we deal with. Because just like you guys, we're you're small business owners, just like I am. Love the fact that we can provide the type of solutions we can provide to firms like you guys and not worry about, hey, how's this going to fit into our business plan? What about the other big fortune 500 clients or big four firms? We are narrowly focused on solving the problems of firms like you.

Rachel Dillon: Well, John, can I ask you one more, um, question about the name of [00:02:30] your business, about Virginia Consulting Group. Can you tell me a little bit about where did the Benaiah come from?

John Randolph: Absolutely. So, um, the way that I tell the story is in the Old Testament, um, when you get into the book of Second Samuel, it starts talking about David's mighty men. And David, in effect, had what we would refer to today as his own secret service. So David had his Secret Service detail and the head of David's Secret Service detail, if you will, was a guy by the name of Benaiah. And it doesn't [00:03:00] list a lot in Scripture about Benaiah, but there's about 4 or 5 references to Benaiah. But the first one is, uh, one of the feats that he accomplished was he chased a lion into a pit on a snowy day and killed it with his bare hands. Through that process, I read a book called in A in a pit with a lion on a Snowy Day, and it is about chasing lions in your life. And instead of turning and running when things get tough, digging in, leaning in to God, and figuring out a way to come up with a solution. So that's how the name [00:03:30] of the firm came into play was, uh, through that book and through that scripture.

Marcus Dillon: Were you wrestling with some lions? Uh, at that time?

John Randolph: At that point in life, Mark, as I was wrestling with some serious lions, uh, I think we all go through phases of life where we do that.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah, it's good stuff.

Rachel Dillon: I think that's going to be added to my, um, bookshelf right in the next, uh, for my coming up Reads. That's good.

Marcus Dillon: Um, yes.

Rachel Dillon: And then tell me, before we get started, we like to always ask [00:04:00] our guests the best piece of advice they've ever been given. That way, if our conversation goes south or sideways, at least we've left the listeners with something good, right? From this episode. So, best piece of advice you've ever been given?

John Randolph: That that's that's a really hard. That's probably the hardest question to answer. Thinking about that, that, that, you know, we talked about beforehand. I've been very blessed. I grew up in a house where my parents were married 68 years, and my dad was [00:04:30] just a blue collar, hands, dirty mechanic guy that owned his own business. Mom was a schoolteacher. So there was there was always banter in our house and wisdom being thrown around. My dad didn't talk a lot, but when he did, it was usually pretty profound. And probably one of the biggest things that I took away from my life at home with my dad was, no one is going to work harder for you to you to succeed than you're willing to work yourself. And that was my dad's nice way of always telling me, look, I'll invest in you. I'll help you succeed. [00:05:00] I'll do all the things that you want and need me to do as your dad and as a supporter. But I'm never going to work more at it than you are. So I've always kept that in mind that people are only going to pour into me what I'm willing to pour into myself.

Marcus Dillon: That's good. So have you used that on your daughters?

John Randolph: Oh, that was used a whole lot, Marcus. That, uh. There's there's a lot of, uh, there's a lot of Lloyd isms, as my daughters have come to call them that, uh, that they [00:05:30] had thrown at them from from me, from my dad.

Marcus Dillon: So that's awesome. No, that's good stuff, man. So appreciate you sharing that. And it's it's great every time we ask that question. It's like from a previous generation like it's it's usually something that's handed down and continues to be handed down. So I'm sure, you know, 20 years from now, your grandkids or, you know, different generations will be saying, you know, this is what was taught to me. Um, some variety of it. So it's cool.

John Randolph: Yeah. You got to love that. [00:06:00]

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. Well, uh, appreciate you joining us here today. I'm going to give a little bit of background how we've come to know you. Um, and then how we've specifically been working with you here recently. So, John, you have a podcast, uh, the CPA life podcast, and you asked me to be on that a while back, maybe 1 or 2 years ago. Uh, which very fortunate, um, to do that. I don't know what you saw in me to, you know, come as a guest, but was very honored to do that. You've had a lot better guests, uh, before and [00:06:30] after me. So, uh, maybe just setting the bar really low for everybody else was what you did with me. So, um. But CPA life, you can go check that out. We'll link to it as well. A lot of great stuff there. I've had some friends that have been on it and listen to them and got to know them more too, in that process. So you're a great interview kind of Kind of. Through the podcast and probably through your day job. What you do uh, with recruits. So thank you. But yeah, here recently, obviously we've been connected even after that, um, kind of reached out to you. We had [00:07:00] a, um, a need, uh, for a team member, a client controller, specifically, uh, which similar background to a tax manager out there in the open market.

Marcus Dillon: And, uh, you know, just like anybody that loves doing stuff ourselves, we took a stab at it to try to fill that position ourselves first. And, um, yeah, just in that process, I was like, there's probably somebody else we really trust and know that we're connected to, to kind of help us with this process because of some frustrations that [00:07:30] we were seeing in those initial resumes and responses we were getting. So we reached out to you about that time. And, um, it was after a team member had left. So after November kind of December timeframe, not the best time to hire somebody. Um, people have already kind of found their next job prior to tax season. So, um, yeah, I think that's what led us to engage you. And then you were able to find us a great, you know, crop of resumes. [00:08:00] One of those we interviewed ultimately hired. She starts next week. So excited for her journey with DBA. But that's kind of how we've recently worked with John, just so everybody knows. Um, Rachel, is there anything else to add to that?

Rachel Dillon: No. But before, um, John, I asked you all the questions in the magic and the secret sauce of how you find great people. I just want to share that. Marcus, will you share what we did before we reached [00:08:30] out to John with very little success?

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. So we've come a long way even in this. So we posted on LinkedIn, we boosted that post. Um, I like the little hiring, you know, thing, um, around your picture. Every time we do that, we seem to get a lot of additional follower followers for DBA. Um, I think your posts get boosted as well because you're hiring employers, so that's probably probably part of the LinkedIn algorithm. But we only make money.

John Randolph: So. [00:09:00] So they're going.

Marcus Dillon: To.

John Randolph: Do that.

Marcus Dillon: And so we spent um I think over 2 to 3 weeks maybe it went a month. We spent about 5 or 600 bucks, you know, just to kind of boost that post. And we got resumes. Uh, man, did we get resumes, you know? So, like, we got all kinds, all industries, all backgrounds, all nations, um, pretty much so in that process, you know, you can definitely find a diamond in the rough, so to speak, or even try to go after people. I've had [00:09:30] some success with that in prior years, like where I would identify, hey, this person would be really great for DBA based on what they share or you know who I know them to be through just additional connections. So we've had that luck before, but this time around it just got our head shaking. Like what is going on in the market today? Do people that we, the people that we have in our mind, do they even exist? Right. And so that's what we did. We used LinkedIn, um, which has produced results in the past. Uh, [00:10:00] man, way back when we, we use Craigslist at one time for a job posting. And that was that was fun. Um, so we've we've kind of used some different things. Indeed. Craigslist. But here recently it was LinkedIn. So, Rachel, that was what you, uh, were kind of hoping for that I said, I mean, we didn't we didn't go door to door knocking for anybody yet, but, uh, we were pretty close, so.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. Not yet. So, John, is that common of what you see when accounting firms come to you that where [00:10:30] they looking or do they typically just are they smarter than us and just come to you first?

John Randolph: No, I think that, uh, I think that Everybody in, regardless of what it is that we're trying to do. Now, obviously, there are things that that we look at as individuals, business owners, homeowners, whatever it is, there are things you look at and go, you know what? That's outside of my scope and my bandwidth. If there's something that goes wrong here at the house that has to do with electrical or plumbing, there's a phone call that's going to get made. I'm not going to touch it outside [00:11:00] of that. I'll I'll try it. And if it doesn't work, then I'm going to call somebody. I'll give you a perfect example. We moved a year ago, downsized our house, downsized our land. I needed to dig a trench that was going to be about 250 yards. Basically a ravine to to steer some water away from the house where we built. And I'm looking at it and I'm thinking it's dirt. It can't be that hard. I'm going to I mean, I drove a skid steer in college. [00:11:30] I'm going to rent a backhoe. I'm going to dig this. What's the worst that could happen? It's dirt.

John Randolph: I spent And $50, rented a trackhoe, dug about 60ft of it in 9.5 hours, got off that thing and called a dirt guy, got a bid $6,000. And I told my wife, that's going to be the best $6,000 I've ever spent, ever. But had I not done that, I would have walked outside, seen that [00:12:00] trench for the next however long we live here, and thought to myself, I could have done that. I absolutely could have done that. Why did I spend that money? So sometimes we have to do those things to to learn. You know what? Maybe that's not in my wheelhouse. So in answering your question. Yeah, that that's a normal process and a normal step that I think everybody goes through to try to see, hey, can I get this done? Whether it's on my own or I've had bad experiences or man, I [00:12:30] just don't want to spend or I don't have the money to spend what? It's a multitude of things. But that's typically what we'll see is those are the resources that people are leaning on and they're great resources at times.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. Let's start with the big question. Are there qualified and quality accounting professionals available to work? I think we're being told something different, that there are none. So if you just find like a living, breathing [00:13:00] person, um, hire them. But are there qualified and quality accounting professionals available to work?

John Randolph: Easy answer. Yes there are. They're out there. It's just a matter of putting in the time, energy and effort to to find those people, to engage with those people, to know where to go, to know what to say. Um, here's here's the the biggest challenge, I think, that most firms don't understand. And maybe [00:13:30] they do. And maybe, maybe, maybe most public accounting firm leaders don't want to address it or deal with it, or they don't think it really affects them. And that is the industry as a whole, from an employment standpoint, doesn't have the greatest reputation in that 2 to 8 year, 2 to 10 year employee model. They just don't because the preponderance of those people are spinning their wheels, working 80 hours a week at a big four or top 100 national firm. And so that's [00:14:00] that's the news that's getting out there on Reddit, on going concern on Glassdoor. That's what people are seeing is this is a horrible work life balance. I hate this place. Get me out of here kind of mindset. Um, they're out there. They just have to be dug into a little bit more than than just the surface. I'll give you some numbers. Um, I'm a I'm a huge stat person. We track pretty much anything and everything we can track in our system. Play [00:14:30] baseball all through high school. College? It allowed me to me to get a college degree.

John Randolph: So I love numbers, I love stats. So we we did a survey 2019. We redid that survey last year. One simple question. We sent it to 600 people. The first year we got I think 560, 550 responses. It's a little over 600 people this time. We got about 460 responses. But the question was real simple. If you have made a job change and this was only sent [00:15:00] to people with a public accounting background, if you've made a job change in the last 18 to 24 months, or you're contemplating making a job change in the next 18 to 24 months, did you or would you respond to a job posting from another CPA firm in 2019, 83% of the people said they did not or would not. In 2024, 78% of the people said they did not or they would not. So we're getting better. We're getting better. Um, [00:15:30] but but again, I like to take that and put it in real live numbers. If there's ten people that are qualified for a job that someone posts qualify, forget whether they're interested. They're just qualified. 7 to 8 of them are never even going to send their resume in. That leaves 2 to 3. That's it. 2 to 3 that are going to raise their hand and say, hey, I'd like to know more.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. I think that like data. I love that. And I'm going to ask you, uh, about some other data that you shared [00:16:00] here recently in a post. But, um, I think first. So people do exist, like, even they're out there. Um, part of it and you may speak to this like what we see is, um, when we test, like, even our team and do some just general testing Enneagram or things like that to learn more about ourselves and each other and how we work better together. A lot of accountants are loyalists, right? And so a lot of accountants live through and you get calloused. And you [00:16:30] sometime in your career, you wore those hours or those nights as a badge of honor, but maybe not your whole career, right? And so we see a lot of loyalists, and I know that whenever you and I were, were talking about like, hey, what would it look like to get some help on placing someone in this role? You went through like how how you identify people who could even be looking potentially for a change or have recently had a change. And maybe it wasn't the change that they thought it was going to be. Could you give a little bit [00:17:00] of background about that process, what you and your team do to even like go find or go touch those qualified people? Like you said, people with public accounting backgrounds that have actually worked in accounting.

John Randolph: So I think that one of the things that, um, gives us a little bit of an advantage in this space that we play in is this is all that we do. And while that may not seem like it's that big of a deal, [00:17:30] it's it's huge. I spent Marcus, Rachel. I spent half of my career with two large national recruiting firms that are known for their accounting finance practices. And when you've got sitting on your desk a job that is from a staff accountant at a manufacturing company to a financial analyst at a bank, to a senior auditor at a public accounting firm and a CFO at a $100 million manufacturing company. [00:18:00] And that's just 4 or 5 of the 30 that you have sitting on your desk. And when you multiply that to a team of five to 8 to 10 people, now you've got 50 to 100 job recs that you're juggling as a team. You're speaking to anybody and everybody that's got a background in accounting. And you're you're doing that from the process of, let's face it, sales. So you're going to you're going to shoot at the closest targets and the lowest hanging fruit. And [00:18:30] so if again a stat I'll give you 83% of the conversations we have with people, somewhere in the first ten minutes we are told I hate what I do.

John Randolph: Get me out of here. I don't want to be in public accounting. So if I'm sitting at another recruiting firm and I've got 30, 40, 50, 60 open recs sitting on my desk, plus what's on my teammates desk, and somebody says in the first ten minutes, I hate public accounting, get me out of here. The response is, hey, not a [00:19:00] problem, because I've got 50 to 70 other jobs that have nothing to do with public accounting. Let's talk about those in our business. All we do is public accounting. That's it. So I don't have controller CFO jobs to to talk to people about. I don't have a senior accountant at a bank to talk to somebody about. I've got I got a tax manager job. I got a client controller job. I've got a CAS senior accountant. I got a tax senior manager. That's what [00:19:30] I've got on my desk. That's it. So we are spending all day long reaching out and engaging with people in that space. We are sending emails. We are sending inmails on LinkedIn. We are farming our database. We we've got anywhere from somewhere in the neighborhood of 250 to 300 messages that are going out on a daily basis to [00:20:00] people just touching base and with with AI today and with technology today, we can personalize that to a to a pretty nth degree.

John Randolph: Uh, it's not like it was even a year ago. There is stuff that we can do in that, that that creates a lot of personalization, uh, through the conversations that we're having and documenting and information that we're pulling offline on people so we can at can at least we just want to engage. We just want to get a response. Because if I can get people to start talking, then I can start, you know, pulling on that [00:20:30] thread just a little bit. And, and it may not bear fruit for us today. It may not bear fruit for six months to a year. It may not be for four years. But we're going to continue to pull on that thread. We're going to continue to engage with that person. We're going to continue to talk to that person, because there's going to be opportunities that may check the right boxes that we've been able to learn about what's important to them. And a lot of times we'll have people say to us that we reach out to you, hey, now's not a good time. Hey, that sounds like a great [00:21:00] opportunity, but I'm happy where I'm at. Um, we're going to do everything that we can to continue to stay in front of those people on a consistent basis.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah, I'm sure Rachel has something to say. But one quick question, because we talked about loyalists and you just mentioned people that say, I'm not in a position to change. How silent Does it go from January through April?

John Randolph: Um, it's it's pretty. I mean, it's pretty silent from a proactive [00:21:30] perspective. We it's funny because the way that we design our outbound engagement is it's pretty high. You know, throughout the years, it it ebbs and flows, but it's pretty high in November, gets higher in December, gets a little higher in January. And then we start tapering off. And we are virtually we are virtually non-existent in someone's emails, text messages, you know, anywhere that we don't have a relationship already. [00:22:00] We are silent because I know that I am the last person, whether it's someone that's hiring or somebody that's looking to make a job change. I'm the last person they have mental bandwidth for. So we try to be respectful of that. But even when we're reaching out to people with the stuff that we're doing, our response rate from people coming back, even if that response rate is hey, thanks. I'm busy. Our response rate is less than about 2.5% in the month of from about mid-March till around the week before the 15th, [00:22:30] week before the 15th, we start to see a little bit more engagement pick up.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. They're just they're just watching stuff, making sure nothing blows up from a fire standpoint like that.

John Randolph: Or they're or they're running like crazy in that last weekend at 2:00 in the morning when they're shutting down their computer, they're thinking, let me just see what might be out there, because I'm dying right now.

Marcus Dillon: A glimmer of hope to get through the week, right?

John Randolph: Exactly. Yeah.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah, I think that that's prime opportunity when people are at that breaking point of I'm never doing [00:23:00] this again. Um, that pain gets greater than the pain. The pain of staying the same gets greater than the pain of even entertaining a different solution or a different opportunity.

John Randolph: So absolutely.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah, definitely. There's a there's a little window in there right at the end before the deadline. Um, and then a few days after and then something happens and they start to forget day by day how brutal it actually was, um, during those [00:23:30] first couple of months and ask us how we know we we played that game for a few years in a row ourselves with what we were willing to sacrifice and take on and say yes to. Um, because it's just it's just for a few weeks and then it'll and then it'll get better. Thankfully, we no longer operate that way. So tell me, John, you mentioned that, you know, the candidates that you're talking to are prospective candidates that you're talking to. They'll latch on to [00:24:00] something. What are some of those things that candidates latch on to that gets them excited enough to continue exploring an opportunity?

John Randolph: Rachel, it's really not rocket science. We Yeah. When we talk to candidates and we hear that. Get me out of here. Don't want to do this. What? We'll typically ask candidates at that point. You know, we don't we don't tell them, hey, this is sorry. All we all we do is public accounting. So we we have nothing to talk to you about. Um, what [00:24:30] we do is we'll dig into why. What? What is it about what you're doing that is just so horrific? What's got you to this point? We hear the exact same answers, for the most part, just said differently. So a lot the same ways. But we hear the same answer, the same 4 or 5 answers. Number one is work life balance. I don't have a life. My hours are ridiculous. Um. I'm micromanaged, billable hours, [00:25:00] utilization realization issues. I hate filling out time sheets. I hate that that you know it's never enough. I'm just a cog in the machine, is all I am. So we hear a lot of the same things, and then we'll talk to them about what? What do you like about what you do? You've been there two years, five years, eight years, ten years. You've been in the industry that long, whatever it may be. You obviously don't hate everything about it. Tell me what it is that that gets you, gets you going in the morning. [00:25:30] I love the variety. I love to make a difference in the clients that I work with. I love the fact that the clients that I work with are small to mid-sized businesses.

John Randolph: And, you know, if I make a difference in their organization, it's not just their organization, it's probably their lives as well. Or if they're working at a big firm. You know, I love the complexity of the work that I do. So we hear a lot of those same things. So when we talk to candidates and we speak to them about things that are going to check the right boxes, we focus on the things that we hear that that excite them and the things that [00:26:00] drive them crazy. What's the exact opposite of that? So we they get jazzed about work life balance. You mean I can work for a firm that I'm not going to be to be told in January that I got to have 60 to 65 billable hours already, or I'm going to work for a firm that they maybe they track hours, but it's strictly to understand scope of work. It's not for billing. I'm not going to get beat up every Friday because I didn't work enough hours. Those [00:26:30] are huge. The ability for people to have the flexibility to have a life from 8 to 5 work for a firm that understands that, hey, I got two kids that are under the age of 12 years old, and sometimes curveballs fly at me that I just don't see coming. And I need somebody that understands that and somebody that understands that. While it may seem like a natural outflow for you guys or a lot of the other clients we work with, you'd be surprised.

John Randolph: Still to this day, how many people [00:27:00] just don't get it? They they they don't get it. Um, so those are things that when we talk to people, their eyes light up. They get a smile on their face. They're excited about what we're talking about. Compensation obviously, obviously plays into that. But I think that we're at a point in the world today in accounting where there is not a huge disparity in compensation between firms. There's some, there's definitely some. But, [00:27:30] um, the thing that I talk to candidates about constantly, whenever we start talking about compensation, especially if there's other comp on the table from other opportunities that are looking at, is you're going to earn every dime of that compensation. They're going to get their value out of you at that comp for what they're paying you. Um, we've got a candidate that just took an offer for another firm versus an offer we had on the table. There was an eight year tax manager [00:28:00] CPA at $175,000. And it's a it's a midsize firms. A large national firm. It's a midsize firm, but 175,000 plus a $10,000 sign on. And I'm very well aware of who the firm is. I know how they treat their people, and I let the person know, look, you're you're going to earn every dime of that one 7175 you are you're going to work for the money you're getting. And if you're okay with that, um, God bless you. Go knock the cover [00:28:30] off the ball.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah, I think that's really helpful. So obviously a lot of accountants listen to us ramble on and talk about our mistakes. They probably all just backed up and highlighted what you shared as far as compensation. So can you share? You know, because going into even posting a job, maybe you don't know what compensation should be. And I know there's a variety of factors. You could probably speak to that as well. What drives the range of compensation. But [00:29:00] what are what are some acceptable ranges for really looking at three different roles, right? Like an entry level, maybe bookkeeping, accounting. And then like you said, that tax manager I think that's a really important role. And then the other one is everybody is looking for, you know, hopefully that director level, that advisor that that leader that can kind of get plugged into the firm. So could you share some like ranges of what you see and even what impacts those ranges on those three different roles?

John Randolph: Absolutely. [00:29:30] Um, you know, on that, that first tier that we're talking about, that, that staff accountant, bookkeeper, accounting specialist kind of person? I think a lot of the things that drive compensation there is, do we need a degree? Do we not need a degree? If we need a degree, does it have to be an accounting degree, or would you look at somebody with just, you know, any kind of a bachelor's degree. You know, so trying to understand what some of the requirements are there. But stereotypically what we'll see is a comp for a for that type of a position [00:30:00] anywhere from about 45 to 75 K is kind of what we've seen. There's obviously some that we've seen that are a little higher. There's some that we really haven't seen any that are lower. Uh, we'll we'll typically if we see something that's lower, we'll try to advise people, hey, you're, you're, you're probably not going to have a lot of success or they haven't had success. And now they're talking to us and we'll let them know. That's why they haven't had success. Um, but stereotypically, that's kind of a range that we'll see at that [00:30:30] level and is a workable range. Again, depending on depending on the skill set they're looking for. If someone's looking for a degree with 2 to 4 years experience, they're obviously going to be at the higher end of that range.

John Randolph: Uh, if they're looking for somebody that is non-degreed with 2 or 3 years experience, there's there's a wide range in there they can look at, okay, at that manager level, there's a there's a pretty big window there. A lot's going to be driven by firm size. A lot's going to be driven. And [00:31:00] when I say firm size again, as I as I said a minute ago, there's not a drastic difference from what we've seen over the last 2 to 3 years. There's not a drastic difference in compensation. Once you start getting at a manager level and above, um, now you start getting at partner level. Principal level. Yeah, there's gets to be some differences there because maybe there's a few more dollars to work with that are incentive based. But um, at that tax manager level, we're we're seeing anywhere from here's, [00:31:30] here's the best way to answer that question. If I talk to a client and they say they're looking for a tax manager, and the compensation was under $90,000, we'd be really hard pressed to find somebody, even if we were looking for somebody that wasn't certified yet. Um, so at least 90,000 is kind of where we're advising clients. They need to be from, from a manager perspective. And that comprehension could go all the way up to 150, 160, again, depending on the size of the firm, the complexity of complexity of the work.

John Randolph: Um, [00:32:00] different variables are going to come into play there, but that's kind of what we're seeing. That's a workable comp range that we feel like we can bring value to the table with a client at that advisor level, that senior manager, director level of a person. Again, depending on the size of the firm, we're we're going to be looking for a client that's compensating anywhere from about 130 140. And north of that is where where [00:32:30] we would need to see compensation to be competitive. And again, a lot of it just depends on the size of the firm. Some of it becomes in in that level, some of it does become geography. You know, we've we've got a client that's in Buffalo, New York, that just hired a senior manager over their trust and estate group through us, um, comp range we were at was a little bit north of 200. We were looking at people with comparable Terrible experience in New York City. And those guys were making 350 to [00:33:00] 400,000. And, you know, my advice to those guys was, hey, stay working in New York City because you're not going to make that outside of New York City unless you work for a firm based in probably San Francisco or LA or maybe Seattle.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah, you're going to give a lot of that back in taxes.

John Randolph: Uh, absolutely.

Marcus Dillon: A variety of different, uh, taxing authorities there. Um, you know, that's really that's really helpful, those ranges.

John Randolph: There was a lady that that I spoke with ironically, for y'all's role. Um, [00:33:30] that had the background that we were looking for, had all of the things that checked the right boxes. She's in LA.

Marcus Dillon: Mhm.

John Randolph: Um, she was looking I mean she was not going to budge off one 7175 base. And, and I told her, I said look I'm going to be honest with you in, in the market you're in, you're worth every dime you're asking for. I can't sit here and tell you that you're not going to going to get it. You're probably going to get it from somebody. I just don't have that. On the roles that I'm working on right [00:34:00] now based on the the level of experience she had, what she brought to the table. But in the marketplace, she was in LA. She looked at San Diego or San Francisco. She'd probably get what she was looking for.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. So tell me a little bit about or tell all of us a little bit about our people. Still looking for completely in office local positions. Do you see mostly hybrid to remote. What what is the makeup [00:34:30] of the businesses and candidates that you're working with as far as requests for location?

John Randolph: Here's here's the best way I can answer that question. Time to fill. If we're working a job that is 100% completely remote, I don't care what the job is. It could be a staff accountant. It could be a senior manager, director, principal partner. Obviously you get a little higher. There's some more nuances, but let's just say senior account or staff accountant up to a manager. [00:35:00] Our time to fill on a role like that is between 30 and 45 days. Hybrid role in office 2 or 3 days a week. And when I say hybrid, I'm not talking. Hey, we're flexible. They can be in the office whenever they want. I'm talking there's a there's a schedule. We need people in the office Monday, Tuesday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Monday, Friday, whatever it may be, time to fill on a role like that is between 45 days and three months, 100% in office. Our time to fill on a role like that is about [00:35:30] seven and a half to eight months. So we've we've got a client in the DC area and, uh, we they're they're a hybrid. They're pretty much in office full time. They're off on Fridays, but they're pretty much in office full time. And through our talent advisory model, We worked with them to take on all of their recruiting this past year. We were able to fill nine positions with them over the last year. Staff [00:36:00] level and up. But there was one senior manager director level job that we worked on, and we started working on that job in January of 24. We had a candidate start in January of 25, and we had we got to the altar with a couple of people. But when it came down to really thinking about getting in my car four days a week and driving to the office, they pulled out.

Rachel Dillon: Are there any other? I'll call them red flags, [00:36:30] but kind of that gives a candidate pause. So you've kind of presented this opportunity with a company. Maybe they've had a discovery call with them. Is there anything that they start to get cold feet or or give pause, like, I don't know if I want to proceed with this with this company.

John Randolph: I think probably the biggest thing that we see there is a slow process. People people want to work for people that are decisive, that know how to make decisions. You [00:37:00] know, we always tell candidates, everything you do in this process is a part of the interview process. Everything you do. Well, that sword has two sides to it. Everything that you do as a business owner and a business leader is a part of the interview process. And and if things get delayed, if there's no communication, if things just drag on, that's a red flag. Um, we we try to get clients to understand when you interview people, you need to approach the [00:37:30] end of that interview with one one of three very simple thoughts in mind. One hire. Meaning, if it's up to me completely, we're hiring this person now. There may be other steps in the process. And we're going to expedite those and move those along. But higher or no not higher. We're passing. They don't fit. My experience has been in three decades of doing this, whether I'm hiring people for me or interviewing people for my clients, when I hang the phone up, when I end a zoom call, when I walk out of an interview, there's a [00:38:00] part of me that knows that I know that I know this is a yes or this is a no. Now, there is a small percentage that I'm not sure. And if that's where we fall, then let's figure out what do we need so that we are sure. Do we need that interview. Do we need more data on the person? Uh, do we need an assessment? Done. What what has to happen to get us to either hire or don't hire? And I think that if if firms can move that process along or effectively communicate [00:38:30] about what the delays are, what's slowing things down, um, because those are things that people are going to take into account when they start looking at how do they manage their people? How do they run their firm? What am I going to encounter when I step into this organization?

Marcus Dillon: But what you're saying is, don't reach out to people at 9:00 on a Saturday because they they see that you're working at 9:00 on a Saturday, and they may see that as part of their future, so they may opt out of moving forward.

John Randolph: If [00:39:00] people are going to do that, um, I would strongly advise begin that message with, hey, I normally am not working on Saturday, but I'm catching up on some stuff. Um, I'll. This past Saturday, Cindy was gone, so I'm working. It was no Sunday afternoon. I typically shut off Friday at 5:00. Unplug. I'm out. Um, but Sunday I was working and I was sending emails to people while I was bouncing back and forth between my office here and the game and there, and [00:39:30] but I was sending every email and saying, hey, I'm normally not working on a Sunday, but here's what I'm doing. My wife's not here. I'm trying to catch up on some stuff. If you're working or you're available, great. If not, this can wait till Monday. Yeah, I think it's important that you do that. That's a great that is a great observation, Marcus, because there are people that will do that. And I can tell you, speaking from experience, years ago, I was interviewing for a regional VP job with a firm out of Houston, and the only communication I wasn't actively looking. A recruiter had reached out [00:40:00] to me, and the only communication I would ever get from the president of the company was somewhere between 11 at night and three in the morning every time. And after about two weeks of that, I decided, you know what? I don't think that's the kind of life I want to buy into.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah, no. That's good.

Rachel Dillon: I'll share a little bit about our most recent hiring process, which follows how we typically do our hiring process. Um, but typically when we have a candidate, I will have a [00:40:30] discovery call with them. While it looks and sounds a whole lot like an interview, I don't really ask any technical accounting questions at all during that call. I'm really looking for culture fit. Are they going to fit with our team? Are they going to mesh well? Um, how do they present? Obviously on camera we hire remote people. So that's kind of like, can they join the meeting with me? Does all of their technology work or do they know how to address it if it doesn't? [00:41:00] I mean, I am literally analyzing every single thing during that call, even though not, uh, asking technical accounting questions. And then I save that for the people who would probably know the answers better than I do to those kinds of questions. Um, but this last time, so we had the discovery call with our candidate, and then, uh, and then we had already decided as a leadership team, if we're going to proceed to two dates and times like we had [00:41:30] already said it, we had already put holds on our calendar just in case. So that way before, um, Tiffany, who will be working with us, but that way, before Tiffany and I got off that call.

Rachel Dillon: We already went ahead and scheduled that, and one was for like a day later and one was for the Monday after the weekend that was coming up. And so they were very quick, um, to come in, which I don't typically like to move that fast. I like to take time in between to think about all of [00:42:00] the things, to pray about it, um, you know, to hear or see anything that comes up in between. But, you know, that was really under Marcus's suggestion of like, no, we need to move fast for this. Like this time we need to go faster than what we even normally do, even faster than what we normally go. Um, and so then after that, when we got off the second call. So our second, our actual interview is with our leadership team. That way everyone has [00:42:30] heard, everyone has had the opportunity to ask questions, and we don't have to go back to the candidate again. It's either at that point it's a it's a yes. We're going to make an offer or thank you so much. We're not going to proceed at this time. And so thankfully, we were able to do all of that and move quickly. But John, I know you asked me, you're like, wait, why are you having another interview?

Marcus Dillon: You've already been.

Rachel Dillon: There. Why is this not just an offer or a thank you for trying? Um, [00:43:00] and so I appreciate that. Um, listening that it time is of the essence.

John Randolph: I think that that, you know, one of the things that we try to do is understand what does the process look like? And that's why I said, if the answer is yes after that initial conversation and there's other calls that need to be had, other discussions need to be had, like you guys did. Let's get those set up. Let's get this thing moving along. You know, we there's a couple of of mastermind groups and, and, [00:43:30] uh, leadership groups in the staffing industry that I'm a part of. And we were talking about this the other day in one of our groups. And I said, look, I don't have a have a problem if the if the process is three steps long or 13 steps long. What I have a problem with is if the process is five, six, eight, ten, 12, 13 days long. That's where it becomes a problem. Because what what I think that we fail to understand when we're hiring, um, and we try to convey it to the clients that we work with, is we may reach out to a candidate that maybe they're not actively looking [00:44:00] today, but if they sit down and they put together a resume and they send that resume to us, I don't know statistically what that number is, but I gotta believe it's north of 90% of those people.

John Randolph: Sit down and think, well, you know what? If I put a resume together for John and I'm going to look at this job, I might as well look and see what else is out there. So they're going to pop open. Indeed. They're going to pop open LinkedIn. They're going to go to their LinkedIn messages and look at the 37 different messages they've got in the last three days from recruiters, [00:44:30] and see if anything looks interesting there. So this candidate that we talked to on Monday that wasn't looking at all. Somehow by Thursday has five different opportunities they're juggling. So, um, again, real life example recruited a candidate last Friday for a client presented to them on Monday. She got a resume to me on Sunday. She did a first interview on Tuesday with that client. She has a second interview, final interview tomorrow. But between Tuesday and today, she's already got an offer on the table from another firm and has a final interview next Monday with another [00:45:00] firm. So it's just that type of pace that it's got to somehow figure out how do we how do we juggle getting comfortable with the situation, but also addressing the needs of what's happening in the marketplace right now?

Marcus Dillon: All right. I got two questions for you, man. I'm trying to leave listeners better off. Um, as a firm owner, how do we protect our team from recruiters?

John Randolph: Oh, that is a great question. Um, and it's funny because [00:45:30] I, I, I work with a with a content manager that we put together content for the next month, usually the last week of the month, and I was on that call before this one. And one of the things that we talked about was exactly that subject. I think probably one of the biggest things that firm owners can do to, um, to create an environment and a culture that they are putting up roadblocks from firms like ours. Open, honest, candid communication. I think one of the things that [00:46:00] people need to understand is people don't leave because of compensation. People don't leave because something bad happened yesterday. They leave because there's been a compiling of things that that have brought them to this point. Um, again, as an analogy, my wife and I do marriage mentoring and marriage coaching, and one of the things that we always talk to people about is ultimately, sometimes what causes a marriage to fall apart is not the salt in the green beans. And what I mean by that is [00:46:30] one of one of the biggest fights I ever saw my parents get into, ever was over how much salt was in the green beans. Now, what I didn't know was there was a lot of stuff that was going on underneath at that time that ultimately caused my dad to blow up about how much salt was in the green beans.

John Randolph: Obviously they worked through it and spent, you know, the rest of their lives together for 68 years. But employment is the same way, Marcus. People don't leave because of the salt and the green beans, because they didn't get the raise they were wanting or because they didn't get the promotion they were wanting. [00:47:00] They leave because it's just one of a stair step or compiling of the things that have been frustrating. And and that's driven by lack of communication, lack of transparency, being open and honest with your people and letting them know, hey, what does your career look like here? What is the next step look like here? What have you got to do to get to the next level? What is a compensation increase look like if you do XYZ, what does that look like and what's the time frame that that looks like that is huge in the In the world that we live in today. The other [00:47:30] thing is create an environment where people feel trusted, respected. They don't feel micromanaged. Um, now, obviously there are people maybe that aren't delivering at a level they need to be delivering at, and there's going to be a little bit of a tighter rein put on those people.

John Randolph: But I think that so many times the lazy thing to do as a leader and I've been there is you manage to your lowest common denominator and and if this is the person that's causing us to do all the things that we do that aren't good, we we just [00:48:00] make everybody else live to that. And I think that that is completely wrong in the world we live in today. We've got a group of people in the marketplace today that want to be trusted. They want to be given latitude. They want to be given the opportunity to get the work done. Um, sometimes not at the times that we want the work done, but it's getting done. I think if people can do those things, um, and, and ironically, we keep a list of firms that we can't recruit out of. And [00:48:30] I don't mean like they're a client. We we don't recruit out of their firm. I'm talking about firms that it doesn't matter what we say, what we dangle in front of them, what we offer them. Statistically speaking, the response we always get is thanks, but no thanks. We keep the list of those firms. And the reason why is those firms become the firms that we start doing business development with. Those are the firms that we want to work with.

Marcus Dillon: That's good. Yeah. Take care of your people. Candid conversations. You know, all the stuff that you know you should be doing. [00:49:00] And then because recruiters sometimes you have a negative, you know, there's just a negative approach, you know, with, with recruiting. And you're taking my people and, you know, into it sends a postcard to the office asking, you know, for all this stuff. And it's like, hey, here are your people, and your people are going to throw those things away or not respond. But yeah, it's a building. And maybe one day it's they open that email on the wrong day.

John Randolph: Absolutely, absolutely. And and you're not gonna you're not going to be able to win 100% [00:49:30] of the time. But but but if if you're winning more times than you're losing and holding on to your people, then then that's a win. Because at the end of the day, you may not be a right place for somebody today after they've been there two, three, four, five, six years, just like somebody in your firm that's been there two, three, four, five, six years may not be the right person for where you need to get to be tomorrow. Doesn't make them a bad person, doesn't make you a bad place. It's just not a good fit any longer. It may be five years from now you come back together, but it's all in how we handle [00:50:00] those situations. And do you create an environment that people want to be a part of and you create that stickiness, uh, that connective tissue that that holds people, you know, to the environment?

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. All right. So one of my last questions, and then I'll throw it back to Rachel. Um, for people that are going to take a stab at trying to hire themselves. Right. How long before they really like that? Job posting goes stale, and they really need to reach out to somebody [00:50:30] like you that's qualified. And then how do they know when they're working with a good recruiter or not?

John Randolph: So the first part of your question, I think it really comes down to the individual. And what do they value their time at? If if somebody has the bandwidth to spend hours looking at resumes of Firestone tire changers and no, no disparaging remark to Firestone tire changers that want to be accountants, and that's not an exaggeration. We get at [00:51:00] least one of those a month. Um, if you want to spend your time digging through those resumes, then albeit do it. Knock yourself out. There's a lot of time, energy, and effort that goes into that. Um, I don't know if there's a magic answer for how long. It just really comes down to where do you place the value in your time in doing that? Um, do you have the bandwidth to do it? Do you have the energy and the patience level to do it? Because, again, let's face it, if [00:51:30] you're running a firm that is stereotypically what our client size is, which is about 12, 10 to 12 employees, up to 60 employees, that that's our target avatar. That's the client we work with more times than not. So more times than not, you're the person, as the firm owner that's doing that screening. And something tells me, you tell me if I'm wrong. Something tells me you're not doing that at 2:00 in the afternoon or 10:00 in the morning. On a Tuesday or a Thursday, you're doing [00:52:00] that at 8:00 at night while you're trying to watch the latest episode of friends. You're you're doing that on Sunday afternoon at two in the afternoon while you're trying to watch the AFC Championship game. That's when you're doing it. And more firms than not don't have a husband wife duo like you guys. So a lot of times that firm owner, that firm leader, is doing it while their spouse is in the back room or in the kitchen. Deep breathing and sighing, shaking their head, wondering [00:52:30] why? Why are you doing this? So if you've got the time energy.

Marcus Dillon: It doesn't matter.

John Randolph: That.

Rachel Dillon: Somebody has boundaries in our house and someone those boundaries are a little looser than.

John Randolph: The other one. Someone needs to understand where those boundaries lie. That's a whole other conversation we can have outside in our marriage coaching. Okay, there you go. So I would say a lot of it just depends on the individual. Yeah. When it comes down to how [00:53:00] do you know if you're working with a good recruiter? To me that's an easy answer. And that is are you working with somebody that understands your business? Um, you guys get that you are a fairly niche advisory, consulting, tax advisory accounting firm. You you you know who your customers are. And if customers come to you that are outside of your wheelhouse, you either dig in really deep to understand them, to determine whether or not you can [00:53:30] work with them. And then if you work with them, you know there's going to be more work to understand who they are or you're going to pass on them and say, hey, we're probably not the best resource for you today. I think that that working with recruiters the same, the same way. Um, somebody that understands your business, somebody that understands the needs of a locally owned, small to mid-sized CPA firm is hyper critical. Um, we talked to a potential brand new client that was referred to as out of Memphis the other [00:54:00] day.

John Randolph: And, um, you know, he's he's worked with 3 or 4 other recruiters, and he was talking about how, you know, I'm getting CFO resumes of people that used to be tax people or somebody that was the tax manager at company ABC, but they've been out of public accounting for 13 years. And yeah, they're doing taxes, but they're working for a $2 billion organization. They don't understand who our clients are. So as a firm owner, I think that that digging into with that recruiter. Hey, how much of your business makeup is in public accounting? [00:54:30] How much of your business makeup in public accounting is outside of the top 100 CPA firms out there? What percentage of your placements last year were with locally owned small to midsize public accounting firms? Oh, and by the way, if this doesn't work out, what what's my recourse from a financial standpoint? Because I'm not a I'm not a $100 million firm. I'm a $4 million firm. $5 million firm. So cutting you a check, let's just say it, $100,000 average fee is going to be 25 to $30,000. That's a lot of money. [00:55:00] So when I cut that check, what's my recourse if this doesn't work out?

Marcus Dillon: And if, uh, if that's Matt from Memphis, I owe him a text back because he was asking about it. Um, so we're talking that for today, by the way.

John Randolph: So Good. Good. Yeah, that's who it was.

Rachel Dillon: That's awesome. Um, John, I just want you to know that we often get asked by our accounting friends. So firm owners and firm leaders in accounting firms. Um, how do [00:55:30] we hire? Have we ever used a recruiter? How much does it cost? Was it worth it? Uh. And even though our candidate hasn't even had their first day when we're recording this, I can say that it was 100% worth it. And I think that's a testament to you, um, your character and integrity of wanting what's best both for our firm and for the candidate. Because it's what's best for both of those things. Yes, there's a little incentive, [00:56:00] because if it doesn't work out, you have to start all over and look for a new candidate to fill that position. But I think, honestly, the even the coaching and encouragement that you provided during the process for both sides, for the candidate, as well as for us to make sure that we both got the best fit possible. Uh, was very much appreciated and very much worth. It doesn't even matter how it plays out. You know, after that first process that the beginning, [00:56:30] um, the whole process with you was top notch. And just for anybody who's wondering, would we do it again? Yes, we would do it again. Uh, just so painless and, uh, fruitful and encouraging of an experience that we would 100% do it again. So, John will make sure your information is there in case anyone else is in the same position of needing to hire candidates for that.

John Randolph: I appreciate it that that that really means a lot because we, uh, [00:57:00] when when we started down this path in 2018, I made it very clear to to my family as well as our staff and our team that, um, we're going to work with people that are just like us. We're going to work with people that are small business owners, that every single time they write a check it, there's some weight to it. Um, we're we're not going to work with firms that we're just one of the masses. Um, and that means that we're probably not going to have a ton of volume from [00:57:30] clients. That's okay. We want to make a difference one firm at a time, one person at a time. And we know that that's going to continue to build upon itself. If we do that right, and we do it with everybody's best interest in mind. And it's worked.

Rachel Dillon: Well. Thank you so much. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you for answering all of our questions and even providing more than we could have ever thought to ask. So thank you for being here and sharing, uh, what you do so well with everyone who's listening.

John Randolph: I appreciate the opportunity to be here. You guys. Uh, I love your [00:58:00] podcast. I watch it and listen to it quite often. So I love what you guys are doing. Love what you guys are doing in the industry, in the space itself. I've. I've referred several people, um, to your collective cohort because I think that what you guys are doing to help people run more effective and efficient firms is amazing. So you guys keep doing what you're doing as well. And I'm excited to, uh, to be just a little bit of a part of that.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah, well, thanks, man. And I know that you're just listening to that to get more content on what not to do for your marriage counseling. Um, [00:58:30] so appreciate you being here. And we'll make sure that people know how to find you. But, uh, thanks so much for your time today. And, uh, we'll see you soon.

John Randolph: Thanks a lot.

Rachel Dillon: Thanks for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed the conversation and want to learn more, be sure to visit. You can schedule a meeting directly with me, Rachel, by clicking on the Contact Us page. Be sure to subscribe, like, and share so you don't miss any future [00:59:00] episodes. We look forward to connecting with you soon!