Who's Really the BOSS?

There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.

Rachel DIllon: Welcome to Who's Really the Boss podcast. I'm Rachel Dillon, and along with my husband, Marcus Dillon, we share the joys and challenges of leading a $3 million accounting firm together. From team structure to growth strategies, we share our leadership successes and failures so you can avoid the mistakes we have made and grow a valuable accounting firm. Welcome back to another [00:00:30] episode of Who's Really the Boss podcast.

Marcus Dillon: Hey, thanks for having me back.

Rachel DIllon: We are excited today to have not one but two guests with us today. We have James and Cindy Buss as our special guest on this episode.

Marcus Dillon: I am so excited about this. James. Cindy.

Rachel DIllon: Well, something special about you guys. Um, not only do you work together, um, but you also are married. So we have two sets of working spouses here on the episode today, so [00:01:00] this could get very interesting. Um, we hope to share as much wisdom as we can about what it's actually like to work with your spouse, um, especially in the accounting industry. And so we just really appreciate you guys being here.

James Buss: We're very excited to be here.

Marcus Dillon: You know, Rachel said wisdom earlier. I want to hear some stories. I think that's where, uh, people can gain a lot of, uh, truth in what it looks like to work in firms like us that are led by [00:01:30] a great husband and wife combo.

James Buss: We probably have some stories, that's for sure. Yeah.

Marcus Dillon: Um, I mean, we can begin with the story that happened right as we were recording this. And you going around the office and kicking people off of, uh, off of Netflix. Right?

James Buss: Right. They're all watching movies as soon as we closed our doors. So we said, hey, you can't be doing that. Now we're going to send everybody home, and. And that'll be about 45 minutes of time that [00:02:00] I got to bill you guys for so that my staff can go home like that. But we should be able to make that worth it.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. The productivity. Uh, yeah. Cpe just hit the skids. So.

James Buss: Yeah, it was terrible, I think. I think we're at the end now. Bummer. After 20 years, it took a podcast to get us to close.

Marcus Dillon: Love it, love it. And, you know, I think the other thing there is you could have just sent them to dairy Queen, which is right across the street from you, thankfully. Right.

James Buss: Right. And we have [00:02:30] a whole drawer full of free, uh, blizzards that I could have just handed them out and said, go. But I never thought of that at the time.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah.

Rachel DIllon: All right. Well, let's do if if listeners cannot already tell we are long time friends, um, the four of us. And so we're excited to share who you guys are with everybody listening in case they haven't met you yet. So, James, will you give an intro of the firm and then we'll let [00:03:00] Cindy give the intro of you guys, um, as just people, as your personal lives. So, James, go first. Tell us about the firm.

James Buss: Well, um, firm opened on April 1st of 19 or of 2005. I was 35 years old. I had just turned 35 the day before. I would not open a CPA firm on April 1st. It's a bad day to open a CPA firm. Um, we started from scratch. I had about 50 clients, uh, that that, [00:03:30] uh, I was working for a CPA firm prior to that and then held on to them as consulting clients while I worked for a construction company for two years, and then came back to, uh, to just outside of Sioux Falls and opened our firm. And then, uh, about two years later, roughly 2 or 3 years later, um, I brought Cindy into the mix and she's put up with me for another 17 years of us running [00:04:00] the firm. We, uh. Like I said, we're located in Hartford, South Dakota, which is the east side of South Dakota, right outside of. We're a town of 3000 people, but we're right outside of Sioux Falls. It has about 250 to 300,000 people. About ten miles outside of town is where we're located. Um, we have we have four hybrid employees, um, not counting ourselves, that, uh, work both in the, in the office and sometimes from their houses. And then we have one toa [00:04:30] remote staff member. Um, we do about $1.1 million in revenue. And, um, I would say 70% of our clients are construction clients. Another 30% of our client, 2,020% of our clients are egg, and 10% is financial planners and other professional services firms.

James Buss: Um. We we have about, uh, 70 to 75%, depending on, uh, when I do the calculation for [00:05:00] our KPIs for collective, um, about 70 to 75% of our clients are fixed, free, fixed fee contract, um, clients that we do, uh, advisory work for. And then the other roughly 30% are tax clients. We used to do a lot more in tax. Um, I would say not quite a thousand, but I would say we're in that 700 to 1000. Uh, 1040 11 2011, 2010, 65 clients [00:05:30] and nonprofits had anything that would walk through the door. And I think this year we'll do about 450, but we have more staff to do those. Uh, we are a the services that we offer are accounting, um, advisory, whatever that means. Um, because we get into everything with advisory, it is not just KPIs of my client's payroll. Payroll taxes, um, normal accounting stuff. We don't do any, uh, audits. We have one review [00:06:00] that we're that we have left that we're going to be giving up this year. But otherwise it's all management reports and then software that we're on, we're primarily, uh, QuickBooks online. You can't come to us if you're not on QuickBooks online. Um, or we'll convert you one or the other and then, uh, and then Thomson Reuters products, uh, for the most part. So that's that's us in a nutshell. We do everything virtually, virtually through practice protect. So love it.

Rachel DIllon: That's a great intro. [00:06:30] James of The Firm, thank you so much for that detail. That's so important for others to hear, as they're kind of weighing our conversation and deciding, are they going to listen to what we're saying or not listen to what we're saying? But if they know that they're using some of the same solutions, working with some of the same types of people, that's always helpful to hear. Um, let's throw it over to Cindy. Cindy, will you tell us a little bit about you guys outside of the office? Uh, anything you want to share? We'd love to know. We're.

Cindy Buss: We're a big blended family. And so we [00:07:00] have, um. I was married before my first husband and I, so I had three stepchildren. Then I married James after my first husband passed away. I was widowed for about ten years. Met James and got married to him. And he has three daughters. So we have a blended mix of six adult children now. They've all made it to the adult world. One just, uh, Lauren just graduated with a master's in social work. We have one getting married next year. Who's, um, [00:07:30] also got her master's in accounting. We have another one who's, uh, in school to be an attorney. And then the other three older ones are all doing really great. We're going to have three graduations for grandchildren this year and volleyball and football are in swing. So those are kind of our outside, uh, fun activities. We have volleyball tonight, and that's kind of our outside world. And [00:08:00] James is a volunteer firefighter and I stay home with the dogs, so we're good. Life's good.

Rachel DIllon: That's so awesome, Cindy. And we have known each other for quite a while, but I did not know that you guys had some grandkids. And I just recently saw you post about them and I'm like, how did I not know this? Um, so I'm glad. I'm glad that you shared that. Okay. And you also share I didn't know, James, that you were a volunteer firefighter. So before you did accounting, [00:08:30] you also did something. But it was not firefighting.

James Buss: It was not. I was, uh, I was a, uh, I was in law enforcement, actually. That's what I went to school for first was criminal justice and then worked for Minnehaha County for about four years before I saw the light, but, uh, and I'm, uh, I was a medic as well. And so, um, that was my prior life. I'm still. I'm still a EMT. Basic. Um, I just can't, uh, start IVs and give drugs and, uh, [00:09:00] um, but I've been, uh, I've been a firefighter medic longer than I've been a CPA. I've been doing that since 1995. Yeah. So that's.

Marcus Dillon: Cool. And I feel like. I feel like we're we're pulling things out of, uh, our draw on what we know about James and Cindy. Uh, James, I also, I also know that you're involved in a family business, and maybe that's why you do so many construction clients. Is that correct?

James Buss: Uh, yeah. So I grew up in a in a family that, [00:09:30] uh, owned a plumbing and heating business. So I've been in construction my whole life. Uh, my dad bought the business in 1978, so we. I was eight years old, um, and, uh, just grew up in it, um, went to work for, uh, I'd Bailey. And there again, I kept working with construction companies, um, during my internship and then the firms that the other the next firm that I worked for was high income, high net worth, more construction. Then I worked for a fortune 500 [00:10:00] construction company down in Omaha, Nebraska, for two more years and then opened my firm. So I was in public for about five years, um, two years in private. And then I own my firm for 20 years. It was 20 years this year.

Marcus Dillon: Awesome. And has South Dakota always been home that area of South Dakota for?

James Buss: Yeah, I would say yes to a point. Um, so I, I grew up in Luverne, Minnesota, which is. What do you think, Cindy? 25 miles on the other side of the South [00:10:30] Dakota border. So we got South Dakota news. Um, and then, uh, I went to USD, University of South Dakota, and, and I've been in South Dakota ever since, and, uh, I'll let Cindy take off on her her time in South Dakota.

Cindy Buss: But I'm a born and raised South Dakota farm girl, so I grew up on a farm.

James Buss: And you went. And you went to what? What kind of school did you go to? Cindy.

Cindy Buss: Oh, he's talking about because. Because I'm [00:11:00] so much older than him. He's talking about that. I went to a one room schoolhouse, which was really hard for him to believe. I still sometimes don't think he believes that. But I was the only kid in my class, and I got to read to the kindergartners because I was a first grader.

Marcus Dillon: Wow. That I mean to be a top of the class, that that's great. And I mean, that's such a cool experience. And just for James's, uh, hopefully benefit, we're going to try to avoid some of those [00:11:30] jabs back and forth. I know y'all are in the same office. Uh, but we want y'all to go home. Uh, tonight and then be in good company. So, um, but no, that's that's great context, obviously. Uh, Rachel and I have. It's funny, James, whenever you were explaining the firm in that, uh, Cindy came to work for you a couple years after you started, I think that was about the same time that Rachel came over. It was. It was probably that realization. Like, no matter how bad we screw this up, we can't [00:12:00] fail. Uh, we can't fail overnight. So we're going to have some runway if we all have to go back and get other jobs. Um, so I think that was the safety, uh, that allowed us to go in as far as a family was concerned on our side. And yeah, I think it's you just learn as you go. And the other piece that Rachel and I talk about whenever we talk about YouTube is that Cindy has given you her date of retirement and her, uh, her notice [00:12:30] of, uh, I guess, employment, uh, ending years in advance. So how many, how many years do we have? Um, before Cindy doesn't show up one day.

James Buss: We don't have.

Marcus Dillon: Time.

Rachel DIllon: I want to stop. I want to save that for just a little bit later. So this is like the cliffhanger. That was the teaser. And then we're going to come back to that. So before we go there, let's do um, best piece of advice. So I did prep you guys ahead of time. Let's hear from Cindy first. [00:13:00] Cindy, what's the best piece of advice you've ever received that you'd like to share today?

Cindy Buss: Well, one of the best pieces of advice I've ever received was not to marry a CPA, and I didn't follow that advice very well. As we all know, as I'm here like 18 years later. So, um, sometimes advice isn't, you know, taken well, um, and, but I think one of the best pieces of advice beyond that is probably, um, treat people as [00:13:30] you would like to be treated.

Rachel DIllon: Yeah, that's a great one. That's a great one and can be applied in any situation. In every situation, it works and should be followed. All right, James, best piece of advice you've ever received?

James Buss: Well, I've had many people give me advice. Um, the one that sticks with me the most, I think, is the, um, basically, um, people don't remember what you did for them. They make [00:14:00] you, uh, or they remember how they felt. Right. You hear this from all kinds of speakers now. But I actually heard that years and years ago, and I don't know where it came from, but, uh, but I, I do think that quite a bit, because in our field, they forget about what we've done as soon as they walk out the door. But if we forget or if they, if they, if we treat them poorly, like, I think it's pretty common for CPAs not to return telephone [00:14:30] calls, right? That's what we hear all the time, is that their CPA doesn't communicate with them. We called, they don't answer back. So all I had to do really, most of our clients and Cindy will probably touch on this, maybe later too, because this is what we talked about earlier, was, you know, all you got to do is communicate with your clients and you're 80% or more ahead of the game. You know, so, so, uh, I think I think that is my number one is did you did you answer all [00:15:00] their questions? And how do you think they felt when they walked out the door? Did you did you make them feel welcome to your firm? Did you you know, uh, we just had it this weekend. Um, we missed a telephone call to somebody because I got double scheduled, and I. I talked to the person, um, in the firm about that and said, you gotta remember that this person's not going to remember how I took care of their their IRS [00:15:30] issue. They're going to remember that we skipped their telephone call that was schedule. That's what they're going to remember, right. So. So it's it's more how did we treat them than, uh, than anything?

Marcus Dillon: I think that's good, man. I there was a if you ask anybody around me, I'm usually five minutes late to most meetings. And, uh, the things that stick out with you, I was I was late for a new prospect, face to face meeting in office, and I think it was beyond five minutes. And [00:16:00] I probably had a really good excuse, but I was coming in the office as that prospect was going out of the office. And I remember that early on in my career. And I think he made a comment about, you know, that his time was just as, um, was just as as important as my time. And I think things like that stick with you throughout your career. And, um, it's really, you know, I think has reshaped, uh, to be where you're supposed to be. And I try to do a good job. Rachel can, uh, probably say [00:16:30] that I don't always do my best, but I try to be good at being where I'm at when I need to be. Um, so, yeah, those those, uh, leaving people where, where, where they make make you feel, you know, that you're mattering. I think that's where it all it all comes back to.

James Buss: Yeah. I don't know how many times we hear that. So.

Rachel DIllon: Okay, I won't I won't leave the cliffhanger too long. All right, so let's go back. Cindy. This [00:17:00] was I think it was in 2020. No, I think it was in 2021. We were going to a conference, and the conference didn't get to happen because Covid was still like a remnant of something. And so a a much smaller group of us met up in that same location and had lunch. Um, they're in like the hotel that we were supposed to be having the conference. And at that lunch, Cindy said, oh, no, I've already given and I'll I'll tell you the number [00:17:30] of years I remember. So this was 2021 and I remember five years. That's correct. Am I remembering that correctly? You are.

James Buss: It is.

Rachel DIllon: And we are now in 2025. So 2020 and 2021. They were different years in all their own glory, right? Like COVID and um, just trying to help the clients [00:18:00] with the state of the economy and the uncertainty that was going on, it was a whole different thing. So now we're recording here at the end of 2025, which would make that five year timeline coming up real soon. So, Cindy, are you still on that five year to retirement timeline?

Cindy Buss: Well, not exactly. Um, so what I've started doing is taking Wednesdays off. [00:18:30] I'm edging my way to the back door. I'm not quite there. Um, we haven't quite got my position filled. Um, as we had hoped, um, December of this year. Year would be my five years. Um, but. And maybe staying on a little bit longer. Hopefully not too long. Um, I did tell James the other night maybe I'd stay till, um, for two more years, just. But more part time. And [00:19:00] then he needs to get his act together and hire somebody for my spot. And the tough part is, it's hard to hire somebody to take over what I do, because I'm operations manager, so I handle the firm stuff. And you got to be able to have that right person that you can trust to hand off the books and hand off the invoicing and hand off all those things that are near and dear to us that we don't necessarily want everybody in the world to know. So that's kind of the tough part. [00:19:30] And maybe I'm having a harder time saying, yeah, that's okay. We've hired a couple people. It just hasn't worked out. So yeah, I'm still here. But you know, I kind of come and go a little bit more freely and it's okay, we'll we'll manage. I may work from home more. It's it's going to be all right. We're going to plug through till we get the right person in my spot. And then out the door I go.

Rachel DIllon: I love that, Cindy. I think it's a great reminder that potentially [00:20:00] when we get tired, we don't have to quit. We can rest. We don't have to completely abandon everything. Sometimes there's a time, right? There is a time. There is the end of a season and it's time. But also sometimes we can change the way that we work and then enjoy it more that we don't necessarily want to just leave it all behind. Maybe we want to leave some of it. Maybe we want to leave parts of it. Um, and maybe we don't want to be there every [00:20:30] single day. All day. Uh, but definitely still want to be involved. I think it's unique, and I feel maybe the same as you at times, in that I don't necessarily want to give up the things, all the things I don't. I don't want to be out of the business completely. That is part of that's part of our story as a family. Right? Like as a couple. So to be completely out and not know anything or contribute in any way, [00:21:00] I don't think that will ever be the story. And so it's just finding what is the right mix, what are the right responsibilities, and what is the right amount of time to make it work in a way that's enjoyable for everyone and beneficial for everyone?

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. Well, I think the speaking for for me and James, I think that we'll always be able to find projects for either of you to do. Uh, and and feel like you can contribute as much as you want [00:21:30] to contribute. Um, I, I think that it'd be pretty cool if you got either a kid or a grandkid to come work at CPA, and then it may it may be even more enjoyable than it is today, because we know that grandkids are way more enjoyable than, uh, kids are. And that's the that's the reward that you get for not killing your children, right. You know, so. Right. Um, that is, that's that's really good. So, so diving in to the firm, James, and where you're at today [00:22:00] obviously isn't where you started. You know, being able to achieve everything that you've already kind of shared. Um, looking back over, over the last really 20 years of your ownership, uh, what were some of the events outside of COVID? Because that's real easy to to point to. What were some of the events that were really instrumental in you evolving to where you're at today, you know, embracing hybrid, um, monthly recurring revenue, all that fun [00:22:30] stuff.

James Buss: So we back in 2008, we had that Great Recession, as they called it. Yep. And I would say that that kind of put an edge to bus CPE, um, because there was, uh, I thought that that was actually worse than Covid myself because we had businesses. We didn't have any businesses that went under during that. But [00:23:00] although it was very fast paced in Covid, it was more, how are we going to get some of this money to our clients? Right. Where in 2008 they didn't call it advisory at the time. But that's exactly what you're doing in oh eight because you're looking at companies that were it was. It was a bumpy ride. And you were advising on should you keep your employees, should you, you know, keep this line of business? [00:23:30] Should you keep your location? Should you stay open? I don't remember doing any of that in in COVID. I remember PPP and all these programs and they you'd leave work on Friday and come back on Monday and they had new rules. But in 2008 it was literally, are you going to keep your doors open? And who are we going to have employed by us? And realistically, um, that's the nice part of accounting, is that in the difficult times, um, the bankers want us [00:24:00] to keep the doors open to the clients. So they got to pay us.

James Buss: And in the good times, the clients don't want to do any work, and they pay us, right. Um, but one way or another, somebody needs us on one end or the other. Um, so that's, that's that's what's great with accounting. So I would say 2008, um, because I was only open for three years at the time. Um, I, I, uh, I don't know if I had hired my first employee at that time, I think I did. Right. Cindy, I think I, I hired my first employee [00:24:30] in oh seven. I had her in oh eight. Um, and then we made a massive change in oh nine. Um, we got into a group and, uh, um, came back and analyzed our firm, and we fired half the clients, and I fired the staff and dropped back down to just myself. Resized ourselves. Um, you got to keep in mind that in, uh, oh five, when I opened, my revenue level was 50,000 bucks at December 31st. Right? So. [00:25:00] So we, uh, um, we had grown pretty fast in two years. Um, we went from 50 to 200,000. I didn't buy a firm. I didn't acquire any firms when I. I haven't ever acquired any firms. Um, so, so by 2008 or 9, Um, we were doing a little over 200,000 bucks, which back in those days was probably equivalent to maybe $400,000. Now, something to that effect had an employee, um, came back, dropped it in half.

James Buss: Um, kept [00:25:30] my what we call now CAS, I get a kick out of it because CAS isn't new. The term is new. So. So we, uh. So we we changed how we did things. We went to a virtual server system because our server, uh, died, um, and went into this virtual world, which came in really handy when Covid happened. Um, going virtual and COVID was nothing new for us. Um, we had been virtual for years. So, so that time frame of 2008, [00:26:00] 2009 really framed how our business would run for the next 11 years, right? So we were open for a while for, uh, two, three, four years before we started, um, Adjusting our firm to a new style of business, and then it's just morphed ever since to where, um, we have no, no software that's on any type of server, on any type of computer now. [00:26:30] And we have more, uh, fixed fee clients. Back then it was build a client out and then say, please, please, please pay me before I have to do payroll or pay me before I have to do a rent. And your your income and your cash flow is really high during tax season and then just went down down down down down down down down down until you got to December and uh, you, you had to work your tail off to try to get the cash flow in the door and all this stuff.

James Buss: And then now you [00:27:00] put people on contracts and I, you know, people say, oh, well, you can't do that. No, you can. And your clients like it. Um, I remember the first client I went to to pitch the, uh, monthly accounting to them and fixed fix b and and and the packages. And I said to him, you know, instead of paying me 2 or $3000 in the spring to clean up your books and do your tax return, um, I'd like to do it all year long so it can stay clean. And he said, well, how much is that going to cost? [00:27:30] And this is back in nine, 2009. And I said about ten, 10,000 bucks a year, we're going to charge you about 900 bucks a month. Um, and uh, he said, yeah, that'd be good. I had another one who said, oh, so my wife won't have to do this on the weekends. I said, no, he said, okay, that sounds good. And it really wasn't as hard to talk him into it. And now we got 75 of them. Um, they all run very smooth. Um, so, so [00:28:00] it's it's it was a change in the business back then. It was also a change in how firms were doing business, because back then we were billing by the hour, you know, and, and, uh, um, then we made that change because as the software got better, the hours went down.

James Buss: So in theory I'd be doing $50 tax returns now, right? So. So you can't do that. It's got to be what the value of the of the work is, not what the hours are. And most clients will understand that, especially if they pull up in their new three quarter ton pickup [00:28:30] and they get mad at you not billing by the hour, you can look out the window and say, hey, when you went to billions and you bought your truck, did you ask them how many hours it took to put the truck together? And they're like, well, no. And I'm like, well, same thing here. I'm giving you a tax return. I'm taking that risk that somebody's going to do that return in my office. It may be my $125 an hour person, or it might be me, right. And I got to keep it within my budget. You no longer have a risk. [00:29:00] You know where your set fees are. So. So, you know, in your budget you're going to be paying me 2000 bucks. Three we don't have any threes. I guess 2000, $2,500 a month, you'd know that you're going to be paying me that however much time it takes for me to put that together in my overhead that I use to do it, is now the risk falls on me and we're removing the risk from you.

James Buss: Um, that and the the billings are never. Most of my clients don't pay attention to their billings anymore anyway. But, [00:29:30] uh, you don't get that oddball bill every once in a while. So once a quarter, it's really high. And the off months, it's low, or, you know, you don't have any of that. And when you walk in the door, you don't have to worry in most cases about writing me a check for your tax return because it's already built into everything. So it's it's smooth for me too, because I don't have to ask for the money. And I never liked that side of things. I'm the normal practitioner. I was good at what I did. I had to figure out how to run a business just like everybody else does. Just because we're accountants doesn't mean that [00:30:00] they trained us on how to run the business. I just knew how to do a tax return. And, uh, so all the rest of it comes to you as you as you do business and talk to people and get used to talking to people and explaining why you're doing what you're doing. So that's, that's that's my thing.

Marcus Dillon: That's that, you know, you explaining 2008 and comparing it to 2020, it even reminded me, uh, in my career in 2008, [00:30:30] I worked in a firm. And that was the beginning of really the end of me being an employee somewhere, because I got paid off of effective utilization or affecting effective billings. And what we saw in 2008 and then 2009, 2010, um, you know, Texas is a little bit slow, uh, to, to respond to some of the things. So in that firm, which was heavily real estate, heavily construction oriented, we saw our revenue and our availability [00:31:00] to do work go down because of 2008. And instead of me as an employee, relying on somebody to bring in work that then I could do and have a great salary. It started to plant that seed that, hey, I need, I need to take some personal responsibility for this. And that ultimately is what led us to look for a firm to buy beginning in 2010. And so, yeah, 2008, um, was also a pretty big [00:31:30] turning point for, for us individually as well. So that's that's really cool. And obviously 2020 with, uh, all the incentives and all the different programs that were there and how we all help clients navigate that and prospects, um, you know, it was a different season for sure. So, so, Rachel, I know you've got, uh, a few other questions and I don't want to miss those. So, um, I know that you've got your list.

Rachel DIllon: Yeah, I want to I [00:32:00] want to ask Cindy, especially from. I'm sure this is a decision together between the two of you, But as the operations manager, what goals and initiatives are you guys working on right now?

Cindy Buss: So the big things we're working on is we want to hire more employees, maybe CPE higher level, um, staff to take away some of the load from James. Um, we also want to work on getting [00:32:30] more fixed fee. Our goal would be to get 100 fixed fee and do more contract work than the one off work, the one off tax returns or. Um, so those are kind of our main goals right now is hiring and then just expanding on our services to the current people, but also then trying to find new clients for more clients that we can get on that subscription, um, monthly, because it just seems to work [00:33:00] so smoothly for our firm and our employees, our staff, our team really like that. That's what they really excel with as well. So those are kind of the big things I think that we're trying to work on right now.

Rachel DIllon: Uh, James, will you share or Cindy, um, will you share what is your average monthly price for the fixed fee engagements?

James Buss: Well, right now I think, um, the last time I checked, it was about $900 a month. It [00:33:30] became in to see us. We've put a pretty much all of our newer clients come in the door. We pretty much are are in that 1000 to $1500 a month. So that average is probably a little higher than what the last time I did the KPIs is. So so that's what that's kind of what we're working on. And and I'm still thinking we might be a little bit low and, and so probably the end of this year I liked how you guys did it in the middle of tax season because the clients [00:34:00] can't really leave. Right? So if you do it in a February or March, but timing wise, I think I would have a hard time keeping up with the contract stuff, so. But, uh, but I might I might put a increase on beginning January 1st to happen in, uh, probably in conversations in, in, say, October, November when we're doing our projection work. So, so I'd probably set it because we use ignition. So we'd set it so that the billings [00:34:30] would start in on January 1st. Increases would come at that point in time. And I'm thinking someplace in the neighborhood of 5 to 7% is what I'm thinking. And with that and newer clients coming on, I think we'd be in that. I'm trying to get that average to a thousand. Maybe in a perfect world it'd probably be 1500. But, uh, but the area that we live in, the facts, we have no, no state income tax, um, our cost of living, all of that coming together. Um, I think that, uh, $1,000 [00:35:00] minimum would be a nice sweet spot for us.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. So let's. You just dropped a lot of knowledge there. A lot of data. So let's recap that. So right now you're at about a $900 per month price point on those 75 clients that you've got. Um, expecting to do price increases in the near future of 5 to 7%. Is that right?

James Buss: Yeah. Correct.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. And just kind of thinking through, you know, obviously you use ignition and they make that really easy to push those through. [00:35:30] And it just comes down to the timing. And then having the difficult knots in your stomach conversation with yourself. On whether or not to increase prices. What we all wrestle with. So, um, you had mentioned like we we did that in the past, um, similar um, like in Q4, it was always a Q4 review, and then we would roll out new pricing. And the the reason why we moved away from Q4 was, uh, you know, it ruined the holiday season. You know, you're [00:36:00] you're sitting there wrestling, you're wrestling with, uh, you know, do you increase price? Is it enough? Is it not enough? You don't want to deal with unhappy people right before, you know, Thanksgiving and Christmas. So we kicked it one year further down a few more months and did it in March, which was really that was ideal. Um, this year we actually kicked it another month, uh, into May and June. And, um, the reason why we did it that way this year is, uh, [00:36:30] if we can start new pricing in May and somebody wants to opt out of that, you know, business relationship, it's more than likely that we've already got their business and individual tax return done.

Marcus Dillon: Uh, that's the benefit of monthly recurring work is we can stay on top of it and get those filed timely. So, um, if they don't like the new pricing, then hey, thanks so much for your, uh, business over the years. Uh, you've got some time to go identify a new CPA. Um, CPAs [00:37:00] take vacation as well, and they still don't return phone calls in the summertime. But, um, you know, I think that's that's kind of why we shifted to definitely doing it after April 15th this past year. And I would recommend to you and anybody else listening about price increases is you just got to you got to put it on the calendar and you have to really equip somebody else, um, to help you do it because that accountability and then, um, it's a lot easier for a team member, not an owner, to maybe help [00:37:30] with that because they can make decisions that aren't as emotional as an owner is, because we love to add emotion into the mix.

James Buss: Well. And we, you know, we created a committee. So I don't choose what clients will accept. The committees are two client managers and Cindy, and they actually get together because they don't um, the emotion isn't there with them. Um, that, uh, I would say [00:38:00] that's probably why we're successful is because of Cindy and the ability for her to add some common sense to James's world. Right. And so, um, so I, I don't I don't choose what clients are coming on board anymore. Um, because I'm still. No, I don't know how I can ever get out of this mold of every client's a new client. It might be my last one. Right? So. [00:38:30] So, um, they know what their workloads like. They can ask the right questions to the client to get out of them the weaknesses that we're not going to want to have, like. Yeah. So have you prepared your tax return this year? Oh, no, I haven't prepared it for the last four years. I don't believe in paying tax. Right. Yeah. Um, they're not going to say that to me, but they'll say it to them, you know, and and they'll, they'll be able to get information and put things together. Is does this fit our mold? Is this who we'd like to work with? Because I'm not doing the [00:39:00] day to day work, right. So? So it works really well with the committee.

Marcus Dillon: Well, that that's a great point. And, um, I love the fact and the compliment that you just paid to Cindy. And I tell Rachel all the time, you make my ideas so much better. And I think by having them work in the businesses that you and I were dumb enough to start, um, is, uh, is evidence of that as well. And, you know, I think speaking for DBA, like without Rachel's touch and, um, polish [00:39:30] on everything that we do, uh, we would not be as successful. I'd probably be cranking through thousands of ten 40s every year and having a miserable life if it was, if it was up to me. Um, so but but yeah, the the compliment to each of our spouses for what? How they can just make our make our stupid ideas at least a little bit better.

James Buss: For sure.

Rachel DIllon: Okay, tell me about. We were talking about the prospect. Um, the new prospect [00:40:00] pricing is a little bit different, maybe, than legacy clients pricing. Are you having a lot of pushback on the monthly pricing that's being presented now?

James Buss: Um, no. We put it out on our website, which is kind of helped. So we pretty much get people that, uh, are willing to pay the prices, but we also aren't adding as many clients right now. So I don't have as many clients to pitch to, to, uh, to [00:40:30] see if they'll take the pricing. But the last number of contractors that we brought on board have not fought my price at all. In fact, I have one that did fight my price. He left and, uh, he came back. We did his corporate tax return this year, and he said, my wife is really mad at me for not taking your, uh, fixed fee contract. Um, so we'll probably be bringing him on here real soon when our, our extension period is over and we're we're back to just focusing [00:41:00] on the work. Um, so it's good to hear things like that.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. Great. Great business development and sales leaders, which Rachel and I, you know, being in charge of growth at DBA, we we have none of that experience naturally ingrained in us. So we visit with a lot of people who are just better at sales and business development than we are. And that's one thing that that we've learned is when someone tells you no and they go with another option, always follow back up with them three, six, nine, 12 [00:41:30] months later, you know, put it on your calendar and follow back up just as a touchpoint because more than likely they are not happy with the choice that they made. And there could be another opportunity there for you to do business. And you could probably pitch them a little bit more, um, at least revenue wise than you did the first time around.

James Buss: Oh for sure. Yeah. When he comes in, um, for his tax projection work, for his tax return, for sure. We're going to pitch it a little higher than what it was. [00:42:00] We have something called inflation in all of our worlds. Right. So yeah. Um, he's not he's not doing his work for the same price he was doing last fall. And, um, that's, that's the downfall to accounting, is that we're so afraid that that people aren't going to be happy with our pricing, and, uh, they they need us, right? We turn away more clients than we're bringing on board. So.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah, I, I've always said I will lose a client on price or a prospect [00:42:30] on price all day long, but on service, on communication. That's where we really need to go above and beyond. And I think you and Cindy and the team, um, kind of agree with that, because if it comes down to budget and value and there's misalignment there, that's really easy to part ways on. But if it comes down to service and how we can improve, that's where I think we're all called to be a little bit better. Right?

Rachel DIllon: While we're talking about price, I'm just curious, do you guys charge [00:43:00] an onboarding fee or implementation fee with those fixed fee engagements?

James Buss: Yes I do. Um, it's, uh, it's an area where the client. Can I see that as a buffer? Right. I want the 1000 to 1500 bucks a month. I don't care if they give me the 1500 to $3000, depending on what I see is needed for back bookkeeping. If for long term, [00:43:30] I can bring this client on because we lose very, very few fixed fee clients, very few. So once they're locked in, I, I forget probably after the first year I'll forget what I did for their onboarding fee, right? I got to look back to see, um, mine's not on my website, but, uh, um, but yeah, we do. I charge, uh, usually about 1500 bucks. And it depends on what? Licensing and stuff. I might build that [00:44:00] up a little higher. Or if I think that there's a lot of work to do in the background, I'll. I'll add to it. So, so we do we do charge. We didn't use to but there's this, this firm that started the collective that actually gets one. And I thought, hey, maybe I should do something like this because otherwise you're just losing that. You're you're giving that up. And, and if, if nothing else, it gives you that buffer for them to feel like when they walked out that they did some negotiation. So if I put a $2,500 [00:44:30] retainer on there, because my initial meeting made me feel like, hey, he's going to try to balk at my pricing, I might say, well, I tell you what, we'll, we'll, we'll we'll cut this down to 1500 bucks And how do you feel about that? Oh, yeah. I love that idea. Great. Yeah. Right. So. So it's still covering the cost of my staff to get their sales tax license done, because it takes about 20 minutes. Right. So.

Marcus Dillon: And you may you make us sound like we're genius. [00:45:00] Like, we did that out of desperation. We started charging, uh, onboarding because, uh, we got to the point where we were losing so much money, you know, onboarding clients that we should have never accepted the new client. It would take years before we we got back into, you know, profitable, profitable work for that client because of just all the heavy lifting that we know goes into onboarding. And then we started to charge, you know, one month or a factor of that first fee. And then, [00:45:30] you know, where we're at today is we actually share that onboarding fee with with the team with kind of like your committee. Um, and they're really the reason why we charge for onboarding is so that they can get, you know, compensated fairly for the additional work that they have to do to get that client up on the wheel of service. So, um, it is all a evolution, man, but I am glad to see that you charge for it. I'm glad to see that, you know that that's where negotiation can lie as well. I think Rachel does a really good [00:46:00] job of presenting it and saying, hey, we can split this over multiple months without decreasing that overall cost. Or if it's a really good client, we have availability to onboard them immediately. Then then we can discount that and kind of get them in sooner rather than later.

Rachel DIllon: I love the point though, that we we charged. We started out charging like one month's service as the onboarding fee, then two months that was still not covering [00:46:30] the amount of budget and time we were spending to onboard a client. Um, and then and then decided after all of that, maybe we need to look at the process. Maybe maybe we need some process improvement here. So so if you're getting to that point, yes, it is good. The other thing about our services at Dillon Business Advisors is that we are just a 30 days to terminate. And so that way if someone decides after we've done all of their onboarding, [00:47:00] finished that tax return, that was outstanding, which might have been the real reason they were coming on. They could give 30 days notice and be done where we would have so much time and budget in their account from getting them onboarded. It kind of helps protect, um, just the business and the team as a whole from having somebody on board to then just discontinue services within 3 or 4 months. So, um, that's also really nice. But yeah, not so genius over here that it took us [00:47:30] increasing that onboarding fee 2 or 3 different times and then deciding, okay, we have to fix the process. This is not this is not working. No we cannot charge the amount we need to charge for onboarding. Um, we have to figure out how to do this a better way. So. All right. Well, James, you mentioned, um, and I'm going to let both of you answer. But, James, you did mention that you kind of heard about that great idea [00:48:00] of charging an onboarding fee. There was so much work that goes into it. Why are we all, as accountants just eating that cost to to gain a new client? Um, but you heard that through a community. And so will you talk a little bit about what community and peer networks have meant to you and your firm over the years?

James Buss: Well, I think it's huge, right? Um, so, so obviously we're part of the collective. Um, so, so [00:48:30] what that does for you is it gives you all these different avenues for answers, right? Because as a, as a sole proprietor, I had been asking for that for years, and this all came out of a. A long time ago. I was saying something to Thomson Reuters and they created something called Partner summits. Um, because I said you and I said this to Cindy this afternoon, too. I said, I can't get five business owners from Sioux Falls, five five accounting firm [00:49:00] owners from Sioux Falls to all get together in a room and talk about how we run our business. Right. Because everything's top secret. Um, so, so by having the collective, we we we have that, uh, safety zone, right? So we can go down. See, you guys have all these other firm owners, and, um, we can say, hey, um, how did you get your efficiencies? How did you get to this point? What software [00:49:30] are you using? What's your tech stack like? Why is my tech stack so damn high? Um, Um, so we can do stuff like that and, uh, um, get ideas from our clients, uh, or our our, uh, our the fixed fee. How did you implement your fixed fee? Um, uh, how did you explain to your, um, your, uh, client that they're going to pay for their tax return 1/12 every month? Um, and not have a bill [00:50:00] in the spring and make them think that that's okay to to, uh, pay you that way.

James Buss: So. And and that it's good for their cash flow and for yours, you know, um, uh, and then when I'm back in the office, uh, it could be little things. It could be, um, the other day, I fired a text message off to somebody on this on this, uh, podcast about a CEO. Right. Because we're looking at employees and there's no longer borders. So [00:50:30] how do I find a mini me? And if I find that mini me someplace else, would it be a good idea to do a P.O.? Because now we're going to be at seven employees. And I was watching another podcast that said, when you're at about 7 to 10 employees, that might be the time you start to look at Peos. So. So I would have had who would I have sent that to? Sitting in Hartford, South Dakota, I couldn't send it to my old firm and say, hey, what do you know about Peos? They'd have been like, oh no, what's it stand for? Right. And so [00:51:00] I because they're they're still a traditional firm. They're still in in suits and ties and everybody goes into the office. So it's not the same. And, and uh, um, so it has helped us advance our firm, um, branch out. We're in forums. So there's ten, ten firms that all sit around and talk about our ideas. Um, last month I was the focus. Um, so I told them my deep, dark secrets and my problems, and they told me, um, that I needed psychological help. [00:51:30]

James Buss: And then they said also that I needed to go and find find certain people and this is how they would do it. And I had nine, nine firms saying, this is how we cross these bridges and they're all hurdles that we all hit. But as a firm of one owner, two owners, however you want to look at it, um, I can't yell down the hallway and say to Cindy, hey, should we do a P.O. I can't do that because she [00:52:00] doesn't know if we should do a P.O. Anymore, and I should know if we should do a P.O. But, uh. But I do know 40, 50 people will be sitting around and somebody's going to have a P.O. At that point, or somebody's going to have had this tax issue or somebody's going to have had this client issue. And so I have people on a Rolodex that the, uh, basically the 2025 version of a Rolodex. Yeah. Bing, I'm going to hit this one. I'm going to talk [00:52:30] to Jill. I'm going to hit this one. I'm going to talk to Chris. I'm going to hit this one. I'm going to talk to Marcus. But we. We all have that to the point where I put one of my client managers on one of your forums to now. So, so it's it's, uh, it's just building up ideas and, and, uh, and how do we get our culture to be better? Well, we, we watch what the other firms are doing. Right?

Marcus Dillon: Yeah.

James Buss: We haven't taken them all to Mexico yet, but, hey, that might be coming too.

Marcus Dillon: Right? You know, it's you can you can have [00:53:00] a party at the Mexican restaurant. It doesn't matter. That's right. You know. So those are fun to. Yeah. But it's it's amazing because to your point about the peo, you can't go to the person selling the peo either, because they'll tell you that it's the best thing that you need to do. And that was a welcome text, uh, that I got from you, because most of the time your texts are about how cold it is there. And, um, you know, then I feel really I feel really, uh, scared for your safety whenever you get into those negative temperatures. [00:53:30] So answering a text is fun.

James Buss: Yeah. When I went to work this morning, it was 45 degrees. I thought, jeez.

Marcus Dillon: It's still summertime there.

James Buss: Yeah, yeah, yeah it was. Well, we're in short sleeve shirts. We're we're good to go yet. We got a while. Yeah, that's that's shorts and sweatshirt weather. Which is the best weather.

Marcus Dillon: Cindy, what about for you? Yeah. As a as a spouse that works in the business, how how big has community and being surrounded by others, um, impacted, you know, your life [00:54:00] and the life of the firm?

Cindy Buss: I think the community um, is great because we can bounce ideas off. And it's good for me because I can hear what other people are doing, or I can hear what you and Rachel are doing. You know, you get other ideas, but it's just that sense of having that support. It's the community, it's the professionalism. It's the safe spot to go to. We've made great friends through community. And you [00:54:30] know where you can ask whatever needs to be asked. And you don't have to feel bad if it's like sometimes you know, where it's something. I think I might ask kind of a dumb question, but nobody makes you feel that way. And I think it's just the support and knowing there's people there that care and will help you and will answer your questions and we'll just encourage there's a lot of encouragement in that community. There's a lot of good fellowship. And it's [00:55:00] more than it's more than, um, maybe some of the stuff we get like, but it's helped us with our pricing, our software, staffing. I mean, it's just helped us in the whole thing. And where would we be without this group? You know, everybody's important. Everybody counts. And it's just a great group. It's a great community. So thank you.

Marcus Dillon: That's good. Um, yeah. And, hey, we're we're we're so [00:55:30] welcome to do it. Um, and. Yeah, I think there's people that care. There's people that are pretty smart. Uh, I think if you take the collective knowledge of even Amy, Christine, Ben, uh, you know, I think some of the people that help advise firms, it's just it's it's amazing to be able to share some of that knowledge, for sure.

James Buss: And the thing with the community. So I, I think a good analogy for this is my daughter is military, right. And [00:56:00] so they have to do an obstacle course. So to me it's similar to that wall. So the community, it lifts one person up so they can reach to the top of the wall and pull themselves up so they can reach down and grab you and pull you up over the wall. And you just keep getting better. So as because there's there's people in the community that are ahead of where you're at and there's people in the community that are behind where you're at. And so, um, and they might be doing something better than you. And this next person might be doing something better than, than you. And [00:56:30] and you can ask those questions to say, hey, how do I get there? And they're, they're ready to reach their hand out and lift you up on top of that wall. And you just keep getting better and better. I don't think we'd beat a 1.1 million in revenue if we didn't have this. We're we were we were in a position. Uh, there's a lot of times where I'm like, what? What do I got to do next? How do I get this? I wouldn't have my toll person because I'm sure somebody told me to find toll, right? I didn't I didn't go one day. Go, oh toll [00:57:00] is there. Let's do that. You know, it was it was, it was something that was talked about at some time, at some point in the community. So.

Marcus Dillon: Well, I, I would say, James, uh, you you have been, uh, a really early adopter of a lot of things. And as much as you're saying, uh, you thank people for the encouragement. I think a lot of people can thank you for the encouragement for the experiments that you do, for the for the risks, the risks that you [00:57:30] take, uh, and, you know, trying things like toa, the team members in the Philippines or a new software and knowing, uh, when to keep moving forward or when to turn it off. So you're just as as much a success, uh, to our firm, to other firms as maybe we have or other firms are to yours. So thank you, uh, for everything that you do as well. So.

James Buss: I don't know, I think the community is huge, I don't think. Yeah. I don't think you could do this without anymore. [00:58:00] It makes. It makes it so much easier to be a small firm.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah.

James Buss: So.

Rachel DIllon: Well, James and Cindy, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for, um, giving us a lot of laughs. Um, here as we're recording, kind of near the end of the day. So good to catch up with you guys and spend time together. And I can say directly that your openness and your willing to share helped us hire our Toa team members, helped our team [00:58:30] come together and make the decision to try one more experiment with offshoring at Dillon Business Advisors. Um, you helped us to encourage meeting together with some remote team members and some in office team members with our owl, um, office in the conference room table. Uh, so, so many things. I'm sure there are more that I could probably rattle off that are directly because of you. So, um, in your firm and the whole [00:59:00] team, not just you and Cindy, the whole team was willing to share about their experience with different software, with different, um, team member options. And so that, again, not just for owner to owner kind of buy in or adoption, but for whole team adoption and getting everybody to rally around the same vision and moving in the same direction together. I think that's super helpful as well. That community allows for that, allows for the whole team to engage and encourage one another, [00:59:30] versus just owners encouraging each other and then trying to drag their team members along with them. You know, on the other side. And so, um, we really appreciate you guys and all that you've shared today. Um, and just appreciate the time.

James Buss: Thank you.

Cindy Buss: Thank you.

James Buss: We enjoyed it.

Marcus Dillon: All right. Thanks so much for leading it, James and Cindy. Thanks for being here. We'll see you on the next.

Rachel DIllon: Thanks for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed the conversation and want to learn more, [01:00:00] be sure to visit. You can schedule a meeting directly with me, Rachel by clicking on the Contact Us page. Be sure to subscribe, like, and share so you don't miss any future episodes. We look forward to connecting with you soon!