Who's Really the BOSS?

There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.

Rachel Dillon: Welcome to Who's Really the Boss podcast. I'm Rachel Dillon, and along with my husband, Marcus Dillon, we share the joys and challenges of leading a $3 million accounting firm together. From team structure to growth strategies, we share our leadership successes and failures so you can avoid the mistakes we have made and grow a valuable accounting firm.

Rachel Dillon: Welcome back to [00:00:30] another episode of Who's Really the Boss podcast.

Marcus Dillon: Hey, thanks for having me back.

Rachel Dillon: We previously discussed improvement Season on actually on two podcast episodes, but on the most recent episode where we recapped Dillon Business Advisors improvement season, we talked about one area of focus that we have for this whole year, but again, during improvement season, really focused on it was Growth. And [00:01:00] so today our conversation will be talking about growth for sure. And just sharing a tool that sometimes gets overlooked for helping affirm grow.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. You know, helping with leading leading the charge on growth. Uh, you and you and me both. Right. As far as, like, client acquisition and being involved in the hiring process and all the good stuff that we do, you can get really amped up. Or at least I can, and get ahead of yourself [00:01:30] and just want to hire everybody, even though there may not be any work for that person to do, or the likelihood that you can even turn on that service line. So, you know, growth has to be strategic, it has to be thought out. And, uh, part of part of what we did earlier this year is we acquired a firm. And, you know, with that, it has a couple of additional people, a whole host of clients that you have to solve for. Um, hopefully you thought through that before you just acquired a firm. Um, But, uh, I would say that's [00:02:00] that's a proven way to grow. Obviously, you also have organic growth. So, uh, at DBA, we value both. Uh, we think there's a place for both in our business and in other businesses as well. So it'll be a good conversation today. I think, uh, part of what we want to convey to others, um, is whenever you think about growth, it always is good to think about the future. Uh, on the other side of that growth, what it would look like and a simple organize that we always [00:02:30] fall back to is, is an org chart, um, you know, and what it, what that really means, um, to visualize what the team could be, uh, a year or 2 or 3 after that growth is achieved. So let's go ahead and, um, you know, dig in and talk about what we're doing right now as we continue to evaluate, like, the current team and expanding that org chart.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. So we are definitely looking at how [00:03:00] like our team structure can enable our growth. Um, if I were listening to this podcast and we talked about tools for growing your firm that maybe are often overlooked. I may be immediately thinking about the perfect solution to finding the best team members, or the best recruiter in the industry, or even, um, you know, marketing and advertising or business development. But we're not going, like you said before, we're not going in any [00:03:30] of those directions. We are talking about team structure today and, um, how to use your organization, your org chart to help the growth, to help drive the growth, and to help steer the direction, um, of the growth, to know who needs to be hired. Right, instead of just hiring more people, but being very strategic in that the people you hire are in turn going to continue [00:04:00] to help support the growth that's coming in and may even bring growth in by just having that position.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. And so before we start, you know, building out the org chart and, you know, putting the names of people in certain seats and things like that, something that has helped us along the way is really identifying roles over people, over the individuals that you employ. Um, having the roles, uh, and identifying [00:04:30] those and defining those first is has been a huge step for us. And so I would encourage anybody that wants to build out an org chart to do the same thing. And we've we've done that at DVA with the team of three model. And I know a lot of other firms are following a similar model, if not that one. Um, to where we have a CSM, a client controller and a client CFO. As far as the service team on on clients, on CAS [00:05:00] clients and that's worked really well. And I think as the, uh, firm evolves, uh, we'll continue to add additional support roles. And then we'll also add additional service lines that have maybe a very similar team structure, but different titles, different roles, if you will. So, um, I would say before we dig in too much, that's what I would, uh, recommend as a start is that you identify the positions, not necessarily the [00:05:30] individuals, uh, on the team.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. And sometimes it does. It is appropriate to start with names and then change those names into positions. So if they're not clearly defined, um, then once you do have the names they're putting what their main responsibility Stability is for their unique skill, um, in that main responsibility, whatever it might be. But sometimes you may have to start with [00:06:00] just names. Maybe you don't have good roles or good definition of that. Um, maybe it's just like accountant or tax accountant or staff or it may, it may just be something that isn't real clear on what they do. So you can always start with names, but then quickly change those names, replace those names with roles that are currently being filled, um, and then moving on to roles that are needed. So [00:06:30] definitely want to talk through next how to figure out what roles, what roles are needed, especially if someone is doing a lot of things that they're managing a lot of responsibilities that don't necessarily go together. It's just they've collected all of these things over the years.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. So to our accounting friends that know what financials are, it's just like a balance sheet. It's a snapshot in time. So start with your org chart as of today. And [00:07:00] that's going to be your starting point. That's going to be, you know the picture that you take. And regardless if you start with roles or if you start with names, that's a really good first step. And from there you can see where maybe bottlenecks exist. And and we've done this a few different times within DBA. And as you start to lay out org charts, um, and who reports to who and who goes to, you know, certain team members for support. Uh, if you haven't been intentional [00:07:30] about your team structure, then I would assume a lot of the people on the team go directly to you. And so it may look like a leader in the middle of a round table, and everybody else is just going directly to that leader for, for things, uh, whether it's questions, Approvals, whatever you may have, but taking it a second step and actually building out. Like who works together and who works together consistently. Consistently. Maybe not all [00:08:00] of the time, but ideally, who would work together more frequently than not. And that's just where we started. We started to move from this, uh, bullseye.

Marcus Dillon: The leader was in the bullseye. Which, you know, uh, isn't a great thing all the way to. Hey, let's let's start getting things on paper. Let's start building out, like, middle, uh, middle management, if you will. I know that's not the best term, but actually build in some support that can actually convey culture. That can be additional leadership, that can hold people [00:08:30] accountable. So that's really that first, first step that we took, uh, in expanding it. And I would say if you're concerned around, you know what? What would people think? You know, having all these base level team members reporting up in the hierarchy of such and, um, you can keep this really close to the chest. Initially, you don't have to share it team wide. Uh, there are, uh, different scenarios that we are working through as a leadership team [00:09:00] where they they are not shared, uh, team wide because we we don't know if it's going to work, and we don't we don't want to explain and have fallout or have any type of hard conversation for something we're just trying to map out. Um, so, yeah, give yourself a lot of grace and don't share it across the team or make it a public document until you're ready.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah, that's probably still like in draft form, still brainstorming, moving things around, thinking through, maybe experimenting a little bit [00:09:30] and seeing, you know, what are the results of trying that, uh, without making it formal or official. So I think that that works really well. Another thing to think about, you know, as we are looking for What are the roles that are needed? What do we need to define? Um, is really finding out where are those weak points or bottlenecks? And you mentioned it. You said sometimes you write these things down or you kind [00:10:00] of draft out, draw out your org chart, and you realize so many people like their endpoint is at the owner or at another team member or at a leader. So just putting out your org chart on paper as it currently stands right now, you may find some bottlenecks that you knew or didn't know about. Um, and then also just looking at what we were able to find as far as bottlenecks [00:10:30] was looking at people's capacity and seeing, you know, we track hours within DBA, so we're able to look at hours worked, we're able to look at a lot of different metrics, um, to determine is it equally distributed among the team? Are there people that have more capacity than others? And you know why? Look kind of dig into more of why is that?

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. And I think I think in addition to metrics [00:11:00] that we as accountants are used to that track time like utilization and billable realization and all that fun stuff, once you start to map it out, uh, that data does provide additional insight and just mapping it out. You can also see, okay, hey, this controller, they have 3 or 4 different csns that then report into them versus you have a controller over to the right that really only has one CSM, and more than likely [00:11:30] that one that has 3 or 4 reporting up to them. They're the data of their time being spent is probably a lot different than that other controller that only has one CSM. They may be have a lot more administrative burden because they're managing 3 to 4 different people, and those 3 to 4 different people have different schedules and different needs and all that fun stuff. So that's kind of how you can use both an org chart and some of that time data, and how we've done it in the past. I would say [00:12:00] you begin to plot it out. And the other the other point that we want to share is like the roles need to go on the page regardless if you have the person for that role.

Marcus Dillon: And another part in that is you may have multiple people that are in more than one role and, uh, like you and I like I hold down a client CFO seat and I hold down a growth seat, [00:12:30] you know, a leadership seat on the org chart right now. And I'm my name is up there twice. Right. So that's something that we as a team, after we see and identify can start to map out if if I'm going to sit in both of those seats for a while, or if we need to start thinking through, what does it look like for me to equip somebody else to have that role and to really be successful in that seat that I no longer need to sit in? So to [00:13:00] to recap that, put the roles that you want to have on the team. If you were in a perfect world, what would those be? And then you're likely going to have multiple people that are in more than one role. Your first time around?

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. And just going just going back to that. And this may not be from an hours standpoint. Um, but when you see the names and, or. Yes, when you have names [00:13:30] with those roles, if there are people sitting in multiple seats, you can also track deliverables or project completion. How long it's taking. So that's another way that we found some areas that they were bottlenecks within our, um, team and identified some changes that need to be made and potential opportunities for expanding that org chart was looking at, for example, our onboarding. We needed to figure out why [00:14:00] was onboarding for some clients taking two months, you know, six weeks. Plus, we'll say, um, why was it taking so long? Was it that we needed a person? Was it that we needed to address a process? Was it we needed both, um, what was happening. And so we we like to go with let's look at process first before we start hiring people. Um, but also once we have that process [00:14:30] and we have, you know, utilized technology, we have utilized the team members that we have, we're following the process the way that it's kind of designed, then we can determine, okay, we still have some capacity constraints. We do need to add a role to this org chart.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. And I would say you could also title your org charts based on the revenue where you're at today. I think that's always a good uh, corresponding just [00:15:00] to be able to, to match. You know, I think as accountants, a lot of us remember the revenue that we're at and the team that we have. So the org chart for a $3 million firm may be where you start. And then if you're looking to grow to 5 or 6 million, what would that look like and what would you build that out to. Because if you're doubling revenue or you doubling team size, you know, and you think about that, or are you gaining some efficiencies through team structure and operational wins and technology, maybe you aren't adding double the team for double the revenue. That [00:15:30] would be a great hope. But it just it it points back to something that we all know and, um, can easily relate to as far as that revenue. Um, the other thing to kind of look at is, you know, once you've identified those weak points and you, you think about that future, you think about that additional volume, then you can start to really map out pretty cool things. And so if you follow a team structure, like a team of three, where you've got dedicated team members that work with inside of the pod, it's a [00:16:00] lot easier to map that out versus what we did in the past, where it was like the spider web of crazy teams that work together. And you had this person over here working with this whole other team just to serve this one client, and it just didn't make sense. So we had to scrap scrap the whole, you know, org chart and like rebuild it. Uh, and we did that I believe on the cat side in 2021, 2022, because we just had so many teams that were working [00:16:30] together to serve clients. And it just it didn't make sense anymore. So going through this exercise a few different times and a few different, um, life stages of your firm, uh, could help you out quite a bit.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. I think one thing that has kind of helped me to think about the roles and the positions and how to define those, what kind of responsibilities or how many responsibilities to include in each [00:17:00] is really thinking through. Is this role with these responsibilities? Does it still work if they have double the volume or triple the volume? So if we're thinking, well, they only have ten clients. Yes, they can do the accounting, the payroll, the tax return because there's only ten. That's not a big deal. But then if we think about but what if they had 30. Is that still doable [00:17:30] to have the client communication to, you know, get into their QBO file every single week and make updates, and then at the end of the month to review the financial statements, to record commentary. Send it to the client. Plus then start with tax projections or tax preparation or a meeting with the client. Does that make sense at that level. And so that may also help start to determine okay, what responsibilities [00:18:00] should be its own role. Like how do we match those two things so that one person is doing some repeatable like work. Um, and they can start to get gain efficiency, gain more expertise so that as they add clients, we don't just have to keep adding people that do the same things.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. And I would say after you've taken a few passes and lived [00:18:30] through a few different, you know, team structures, What what you learn, what we're learning is you provide additional support to those team members so that they can focus on what they're best equipped to. So if I wanted to grow somebody from 15 monthly clients to 30 monthly clients and they were open to it, I would put into place administrative support to take some things off of their plate and kind of equip the whole pod or the whole team. Um, so we've seen that that's that's [00:19:00] why we evolve from, you know, the traditional one, CFO to controller for CSM pod and added in that additional team member, which is the CSM assistant, and they support that whole pod and that CSM, they can delegate down to that CSM assistant. The controller could go to that CSM assistant for additional support if needed, and even the CFO if they're building out reports and things like that. Um, our CSM assistants or team [00:19:30] members that, um, sit in the Philippines currently. And so it's worked really well. Their availability and their focus throughout the day, just because they have limited client interaction is is a really good, um, mix as far as the team is concerned, because the team's primary care is client care. And, uh, that's just where where it's worked here recently for us.

Marcus Dillon: So, uh, the other real big win that we see, uh, when we've developed [00:20:00] org charts over the years are part time team members. And so we've had part time team members both at the CSM or at the CSM, the client controller and the client CFO level. So, uh, whenever you talk about flexibility within team, part timers are a little bit easier to scale up or scale down depending on what's going on in their life. And as long as that work life commitment balance is, is fitting. Uh, they may have a bit, a little bit more seasonal availability, uh, compared to a full time [00:20:30] person, if, you're trying to keep them at 40 hours a week, like you know what the cap is. And sometimes knowing that cap is really good whenever you're planning out an org chart. But a part time team member actually does help quite a bit. Um, if you're looking to add a new team member but can't find that new team member quite yet, if that part timer will, you know, step into a role for for a season. Um, that's a good middle ground that's come to save us quite a bit over the years. Just having some different folks that [00:21:00] that want that part time flexibility, having them kind of be in the team.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. Let's talk for a second. Um, let's just go into a little bit more detail about our, uh, CSM assistant or client service manager assistant. We do have, um, our, as you mentioned, toe team members in the Philippines. That role would also be great for an intern, um, an entry level or, you know, more, even more administrative [00:21:30] person would be okay. So with that CSM assistant, it has really allowed us to bridge between the time when we need a new team member. Um, and when you're actually able to hire them. It just gives us a little bit more runway for that whole pod or that whole team.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. For sure. I think the the main thing with the CSM assistant, you just want options. And with our relationship with Toa, [00:22:00] uh, those are full time team members as far as the cost benefit that goes along with, uh, global talent. I think that's also something that we can utilize. And even though some people are mixed about, do they take that chance? Uh, it's a good it's a good way to introduce somebody to your team. And we've introduced them to the team before we would a client make sure that communication is on point, that they can, um, That you can trust them with certain [00:22:30] tasks and really just supporting the team. It's very similar to how like an executive assistant or a virtual assistant would. Um, and that's how we've used them from VA roles all the way up to, hey, can you help me build out this, uh, this CFO level report? And can you help me build the bridges in between, you know, like the different data that's flowing into it? So it's been really it's been a really good experiment. We're really happy with the results. And obviously we're we're continuing to add CSM [00:23:00] assistants across the team.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. What are some other roles like their very first initial roles when they first joined the team? As far as doing things in batch that all of the Csm's would need done on a recurring monthly basis?

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. I think if you look at the the rapid technology that we're seeing with AI and agents and everything, um, part of that is as you shift and people have been telling us for decades, right. You need to shift to advisory. [00:23:30] You need to move out of production. You need to some of the technical aspects aren't going to be there anymore. They're going to be done by machines. So we have kind of delegated some of that stuff that may go away to our CSM assistant and getting our our local team to think about where their time is best spent. So, um, it's not a negative by any means, but if there are certain things that need to be pulled, like bank statements like loan statements that can't physically be imported [00:24:00] into QuickBooks file for whatever reason, they're the ones that are going out there and doing really that administrative task. They're also keeping up to date with fixed assets, um, depreciation journal entries, making sure that those are up to date, you know, the notes payable, the difference between principal and insurance balances, building out amortization schedules, all that fun stuff. And then they can also go in and accept bank feeds, they can reconcile the bank accounts. They can do a lot of the internal accounting, [00:24:30] if you will. Um, that really, you know, the skill set of a CSM here at DVA, like their time is best spent with either our team or a client. Um, you know, they've kind of grown beyond just the reconciliation of a bank account. And, uh, that's just something that easily, uh, CSM assistant can help that CSM with their time. So then that CSM can serve more clients.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. All right. Well, thanks for thanks for sharing [00:25:00] that. I think it's helpful when we can give even more context of what that, you know, what would that role do? Um, just to help people understand if it's something that would be useful in their firm, you know, would that be a good option for them? And so, um, continuing just kind of continuing on how we use our org chart as a tool, um, something that has come up recently and likely it's related to having a new tax law signed in, is a [00:25:30] lot more people calling about tax services only where we traditionally focus on small businesses and providing them a suite of services, or we call it full service accounting, where they are getting a monthly bookkeeping, they are getting, um, semiannual tax projections, tax preparation and then quarterly advisory meetings, sometimes on a monthly basis, depending on the client. But [00:26:00] this very defined set of services that either all go together or we don't have them as a client. But we've had really great one small business owners that have sold their businesses but still need services, and then also really great referrals from either regular individuals that are maybe just high income earners or high net worth individuals, and then also some who are starting [00:26:30] up a business, they don't have their business going yet, but they're looking to do that in the future. And so we kind of had this whole grouping of people that didn't quite fit the services that we have, but they align on values and they value the planning and advisory piece that our team can uniquely offer.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. Um, so to that point, I mean, 2025 for us has been a growth year. Uh, the second director level [00:27:00] person that we added to our team, uh, was our director of tax and financial planning. So Aaron joined the team in August. Um, and he's leading, you know, that service line of additional tax advisory that we are really growing and, um, taking from other, uh, from other team members that were serving them throughout the year. So, um, we always had some some legacy tax clients and some additional family office [00:27:30] clients spread out amongst our CAS pods. And those controllers were able to serve those clients well. And, um, you know, as those controllers continue to grow out their CAS, you know, pod, um, to more of what we had designed it to be, the the trick was balancing out, you know, these clients that you serve on a monthly basis versus the clients that you serve on a quarterly or semiannual or maybe even an annual basis that are still really great clients. They [00:28:00] are, you know, the right, the right price. They're great to work with. Um, but they're just not that CAS service. So with the new tax law and what we've been seeing in the market, um, we did see that there was an opportunity to really reintroduce these tax advisory services. And then with that, we needed to go build out a team to to do that and to equip, uh, others to no longer, uh, try to fill those [00:28:30] roles.

Marcus Dillon: So that's where we're in the middle of building. Um, so with that, you know, Aaron comes over, he leads that, uh, that team we have, our tax administrators are in there. Our CSM assistant or our tax assistants are in there. And then we have controllers in there, um, that are are tax only controllers. So we did ask our team earlier this year controller wise. Hey would you would you want [00:29:00] to accept new accounting CAS clients or do you want to move to a tax only controller role. And you know, we had one controller which we kind of knew which which way she would choose. And she said, hey, I only want to really focus on tax. I have a couple of CAS clients I'll continue to serve them for the time being, but I don't really want to grow in a CAS, um, in a, in a way in, in the CAS growth area, and that's fine. [00:29:30] Uh, and then the other controllers, for the most part said I would rather do CAS, which includes accounting and tax for those CAS clients, but not tax for any other additional clients that may not fit on a monthly basis. So what we're able to do now is see, hey, Aaron's going to lead this. What are the what are the folks that we need alongside Aaron to kind of help serve these tax advisory clients? Do we go out to market and find an additional tax controller to start? And I think that's where we're [00:30:00] at today.

Marcus Dillon: Um, the the cool thing that will happen is whenever we share this org chart with the team, which will be at our November retreat and really have it kind of built out and where it's going, those those clients that are not monthly clients but were being served by CAS controllers. They're going to come off and find a new home with within, you know, the org chart and being served by by a director of tax and financial planning, which is a great win, [00:30:30] um, to kind of help drive strategy and make sure everything's optimized from a compliance standpoint. But then they're going to have a dedicated team that's going to be serving them evenly, you know, on an ongoing basis, and that's going to be part of the win that the client's going to be getting served. But then also on the other side that these CAS controllers, they're not really stressed out about these Non-monthly clients any longer. They have found a new home within DBA. And so really excited. I think that'll, um, [00:31:00] paint a better picture for team members of what we've been trying to build. Why why we've been a little bit aggressive on growth to get to that point, to be able to have these team members so we can structure the work that way and hopefully it'll be a very big, uh, you know, celebration to to see that kind of roll out.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. I, um, having the team of three structure has been huge to allow us to continue to scale. So [00:31:30] not just to grow and grow team, because I think at some point you and I would max out on ability to lead if we were just growing team members at the same rate that we were growing clients. And so having Amy come in, our director of operations again, as we started seeing how many pods and how many teams of three in different, uh, variations of that were there, then we were able to see if [00:32:00] we're going to continue to grow. We need to look at how do we streamline the processes, how do we streamline everything from hiring to onboarding? Um, to doing the monthly work, getting the deliverables out in a timely manner. And so even that so not necessarily just adding another service line, but even adding support, um, at the, at the owner [00:32:30] and like partner level so that you can continue to grow and can the purpose there is to continue to lead and develop people well and then allow your current team the opportunity to continue to develop in their career.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. And what we're seeing, uh, we've we've always provided tax services, as mentioned. We provide it to our clients. We also have provided it to some some families that have stayed throughout transitions. [00:33:00] Um, it's like we're building obviously a little bit of a family office concept, um, as we go and we, we serve family offices. So that makes a lot of sense. Um, I would say the other point in all of this is what we're seeing in the market. Uh, because of the new tax law and people having so many questions around the new tax law, we're seeing an advantage if you do provide tax services. And part of that is, you know, kind of speaking into it. There are fewer [00:33:30] people that are accepting new tax clients. So if we accept them as a tax client, we can also maybe get their client accounting, uh, work as well. And then we're also seeing just an influx of CFO or fractional CFO folks. Um, and they're great for a season, but maybe you have a season where clients have gotten all that they can out of that one CFO, but they still need to file taxes. They still need monthly, you know, financials and compliance. So [00:34:00] they still have to have a team. So we've actually been supporting some of those fractional CFOs and serving their clients so that they they really can speak into, you know, timely financials and make sure that the compliance is being done in the right way and in a proactive way.

Marcus Dillon: So just something that I personally, you know, I'm seeing, but I also, you know, grew up in in doing tax. I've always seen that as you know, a service line that we would continue. It's just asking ourselves what's the [00:34:30] right amount of tax. And now it's taking that a step further to say what team is going to provide those tax advisory services. Um, so so that's where we're at. Um, you know, I think the stage of the game where we are today is we have an org chart. It's being, you know, it's on paper, it shows all the different roles that we want to have, uh, a year from now on the team. And then, like, we began the conversation, I get really [00:35:00] excited with growth and the idea of hiring somebody. And I may get a resume on a really good CSM candidate. I may get a resume on a really good seat See controller, CFO. And I want to hire him. You know, when that hits my inbox, regardless if that's really the need of the of the firm. So having this org chart and kind of mapped out in a certain way, and the leadership team to hold me accountable, uh, when we talk about, hey, who's the next person we need to go hire, we are only looking for that client controller [00:35:30] that has tax experience that's going to work alongside Aaron for these tax advisory services.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah, that's really good. I want to take us way back to when we were putting our org chart on paper for the first time, when the team of three was in its development stages to where our beginning org chart looked more like a web. Um, had you in the center and had spokes going out with, [00:36:00] you know, all the current team members names on them. That's really what our very first org chart looked like, the first iteration that we wrote down. And then we started developing the team of three. And I think something that was important and always comes up in conversation, um, as new roles are developed of like, what is this title going to be? So let's think about this for a second. If there are people who feel like I don't care about titles, I don't [00:36:30] want to make this awkward. Um, what's really the benefit of, well, I'm going to say titles, because somebody might be thinking of it in that way and thinking of titles and hierarchy versus how would you really say like a team structure and a good org chart help.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. Um, I think I think it just maps out the client service, not only internally but externally [00:37:00] from a client perspective. And so like the titles that we've adopted, um, are also shared with clients so that they can understand, you know, the the roles and responsibilities of a client service manager, the roles and responsibilities of a client controller, CFO, the admin team, and those are shared with that client as a part of their onboarding and their implementation kick off. So, um, I think that's that's ultimately a little bit of clarity [00:37:30] about who works together, what their role within that team is. That's why we've chosen to go that route versus the typical staff senior manager, senior manager, director, partner hierarchy. That could be a million different categorizations for all the different firms out there. So that's why we've chosen a little bit of a unique perspective. Um, I also think there's an element to where if you if [00:38:00] you're able to have the role speak to what that person does. So if they are a tax controller, then call them a tax controller. If they are the director of tax and Financial planning, that's what they do. I think I think trying to minimize the confusion in what this person brings to the relationship with the client, uh, internally, you know, the person, not the role, just like we talked about in the org chart. Right? So, um, if we only put names on the org chart [00:38:30] internally, we know that. Hey, Molly's going to report to Marcus, but if you're a new person coming in, you don't you don't really know what Molly's role is.

Marcus Dillon: What? All she's responsible for, what? All she takes care of on a day to day basis. You don't know why she's reporting up to Marcus, other than he's the owner. You know, I think those are some of the things that we had to get over and get past, um, not only externally for client benefit, but also internally for [00:39:00] new team members as they came on. Um, and I would say. Going remote and having a fully dispersed team, it's even harder. And so I think that's the other element in all of this. You have the on prem teams that maybe have a different culture and work together and are able to see hierarchy, you know, based on how you interact face to face and, you know, proximity wise. But operating in a remote environment, the org chart is, is is [00:39:30] even more important in my opinion. And I think it's come, it's come out as very helpful whenever we go over it with the team. And uh, not only does it reinforce, you know, who works together, but it reinforces, hey, as we grow, these are the positions that we're looking to hire and fill. Um, because then they start thinking, hey, do who do I know that would be a great person on Aaron's team that has a tech background that I would love to work with as a as [00:40:00] a coworker.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah, I think you hit it. Clarity. Right. And so it's not anything about titles. It's more about positions and what responsibilities they have so that team members know what their expectations are. They know exactly how to plan out and prioritize their week because they know exactly what they're responsible for, um, when it's due all of those types of things. And then, like you mentioned, yes, for new [00:40:30] people, it's so much easier to learn what a client service manager does and know that everybody who has that position of client service manager does these things versus trying to figure out what, uh, Molly does. What is an Amada do? What is a Lena do? What is a Leslie do? Um, that is not very easy to learn if you're trying to learn, you know, probably more than three people. Um, you kind of lose the ability to do that. So, um. Yeah, for sure. We [00:41:00] did not love titles like, hey, I don't care what your title is, but this is the position that we need you to have and this is the responsibilities we need you to take care of. We can, you know, figure out what the best name of that role. But just like you mentioned again, that having that position named for something similar to what they do so that it's easily identifiable, identifiable to anybody, not just somebody within your [00:41:30] firm. Um, that way for clients that helps them identify who is helping them or who can help them. And then for new team members as well, what the expectation and how they can collaborate with others based on what they do.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. And I would say, you know, before we start wrapping up, um, is something that we've kind of identified as our goal at DBA is we want our org chart to be on a landscape sheet of paper. [00:42:00] Not a portrait view. Sheet of paper. And so if. If you know about, you know, print collation settings, all that stuff. Right. Uh, we want a very wide org chart. Not a very like tall and deep org chart. We want to be able to go wide and have service teams that serve clients really, really well. Um, and just have options to grow that way. So that's been a goal of ours. Uh, even when we look at something like firm acquisition or just [00:42:30] organic growth, um, it's easier to identify that and build it out, you know, horizontally and bring these teams in and fit them into roles that are already predefined versus just add a new leg of a tree that's just growing taller and taller and taller.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. So we have worked on org charts. We have developed team structure. We have tested [00:43:00] it, we have broken it, we have refined it and built it bigger and better. And so if there is anyone listening who has questions or you start through your org chart and you are wanting support, thinking through future positions, you're not sure what positions come next or not sure how to, um, take the person who have so many responsibilities, different responsibilities, and kind of separate those into roles. Our team at collective by DBA [00:43:30] would love to help, so that's as simple as reaching out through our website on the contact us or even, um, you can find us on social media. You can email me at Rachel at. So happy to help through that. If you have questions or are just wanting a little bit of extra support or guidance on using your org chart as a tool for growth.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. And you know, [00:44:00] in leaving people better off than we found them, I would just encourage you like look at your team and see who you have today and start to map out those goals that you have. What would a future team look like? You may have to refer back to your website. You may have to look at your most recent Christmas card if that's how you have to think about it. I'm I am guilty of that. I have to go back to the chapters of DBA and look at the pictures of the folks that helped helped helped us build this business. Um, in [00:44:30] order to see that. And you think about the faces and you think about all of that, and that's the reason why we do what we do. Whenever you're mapping out and planning and thinking about it from a business perspective, that's where the org chart comes in. So we're not trying to minimize the people or the relationships behind the business and the team members that you've cultivated and care for over the years. Uh, this is really can be used as a tool for growth. It can help you map out what that team and that client service [00:45:00] looks like over time, based on the client numbers and the revenue that you want to hit.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you for sharing. Thank you for sharing details of how we've come about using our org chart to help us continue to grow, to lead others well and to serve our clients well. So I think this will be helpful to everybody who hears it.

Marcus Dillon: All right. Well thanks so much. Look forward to the next conversation.

Rachel Dillon: Thanks [00:45:30] for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed the conversation and want to learn more, be sure to visit collective. You can schedule a meeting directly with me, Rachel by clicking on the Contact Us page. Be sure to subscribe, like, and share so you don't miss any future episodes. We look forward to connecting with you soon!