Who's Really the BOSS?

There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.

Rachel Dillon: Welcome to Who's Really the Boss podcast. I'm Rachel Dillon, and along with my husband, Marcus Dillon, we share the joys and challenges of leading a $3 million accounting firm together. From team structure to growth strategies, we share our leadership successes and failures so you can avoid the mistakes we have made and grow a valuable accounting firm.

Rachel Dillon: Welcome back to another episode [00:00:30] of Who's Really the Boss podcast.

Marcus Dillon: Hey, thanks for hanging back.

Rachel Dillon: And we have a special guest with us. We have Shawn Gubler of Connexus, CPA. Shawn.

Shawn Gubler: Thank you. It's good to be here with you today.

Rachel Dillon: Awesome. Well, we are so glad that you are taking time to share about your firm. Definitely want to hear a little bit about you. So both personally and professionally, anything you'd like to share with the listeners before we jump into the conversation?

Shawn Gubler: Okay, well I am My name is [00:01:00] Shawn Gubler. I'm from, uh, southern Utah. Born and raised. I come from a family that, um, has a wide range of things they did growing up. My dad was an entrepreneur, and everything from ranching to retail, um, to real estate development. Um, so just a diverse background in things that I was around growing up. And, uh, and then I had the opportunity to grow up around a couple of CPAs that I thought were really good guys. So from a pretty young age, I was kind [00:01:30] of interested in in the profession.

Rachel Dillon: That's awesome. Tell tell us a little bit about the people at home as well.

Shawn Gubler: So I'm married, have, uh, four kids. My wife is Tina. Um, our three of our kids are married. We have. We just had our third grandchild about a month ago. Um, and so that's been fun. Um, you know, grandkids are the one thing in life that are everything that it's cracked up to be, plus a little bit more. So I love my kids, but but [00:02:00] grandkids are a whole different level.

Marcus Dillon: That's awesome. Yeah. And Sean, we've known each other for a while. We're actually we've been, uh, the same mastermind group for a bit, so I feel like. I know you feel like I've got to know Tina, uh, with her coming in for collective events. So that's been really awesome. Um, one thing that I will share about you, Sean, is you take some great vacations, and I know that you just got back from one, so you're fresh off of vacation. I know you want to make everyone envious and share about it. [00:02:30] So where'd you just get back from?

Shawn Gubler: So we just went over to Europe. We spent a 3 or 4 days in London, and then we, uh, jumped on a cruise ship and went up through the Baltics and, um, checked out some different places that we hadn't been up there. And it's just interesting to go see different parts of the world. And for a lot of years in this business, I didn't I just just grounded out. And, um, my wife actually gave me a little bit of an ultimatum as our kids were getting older because I'd always missed spring break and everything like that, and [00:03:00] she said, we're we're missing out on this time. And so I just decided I was going to start doing it, and I found that I actually could get more done taking that break in the middle of tax season than I could, just trying to grind through it. Yeah. And so it just was it was just interesting. I didn't expect it. It was unexpected. And since then I've, I've tried to work those in regularly.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. No I and I remember, you know, whenever you, whenever you started that or made, made that a habit. Um, you know, a lot of people would think, hey, we're CPAs. [00:03:30] We don't get to go on spring break like you signed up for this. Um, but after after Rachel and I, we made that a point as well. Like, now, thinking about it like one. Why didn't we? Why did we ever fool ourselves into thinking that that wasn't an option? And then two, I'm never going back to not taking a break in the middle of that because like you said it, it's refreshing. You can kind of come back second half of the of the season, so to speak, and be re-energized and know that, know [00:04:00] that there's just a little bit more left. I think that's really good.

Shawn Gubler: Yeah. It is found that, you know, you're you're I'm able to provide better service to my clients just a lot sharper when I do it than when I don't. So yeah, I think everybody benefits from it.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. For sure.

Shawn Gubler: It's really never been an issue.

Rachel Dillon: So that's that's really good. Sean I'm going to take that as one piece of advice that you that that you're giving to others. Take the take the vacation. Right. What's one piece of advice that, uh, [00:04:30] what's the best piece of advice you've ever received that you'd like to share today?

Shawn Gubler: You know, I've thought about that quite a bit, actually. And it comes from my dad. Um, and he he told me this. He says I always just give more than you take from anything, whether it's a business deal or, you know, your business kind of that you cast your bread on the water and more comes back to you than what you put out there. And, um, I've just found that to be true. Whether it's with employees, clients, um, you know, [00:05:00] your family, whoever it is, church, wherever you're at, when you do that, um, there is there's always more that comes back than what you put out there. And so it's just an interesting process how that works. Um, to me. And it's just always proven to be true.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah, that's really good. Um, it's kind of a, you know, something that we all need to remember, especially all the different relationships, you know, we maintain, like you pointed out there. So I'm sure [00:05:30] you do that on a daily basis at home, but also at, at the office whenever you are in office. Um, tell us a little bit more about the team at Connexus, the makeup of the firm. You know, who all is on the leadership team. And just more about, you know, that side of life.

Shawn Gubler: Okay. I, um, I am probably maybe a little bit different than a lot of the firms. Um, with collective and DBA, I do have partners. Um, I have done this on my own [00:06:00] and I have had partners. Um, and there are advantages and disadvantages to both. Um, uh, there's no, no question about it. There's a little bit more challenging sometimes with partners, but there are also some things that come with having those partners too, that allow, allow me to do some things that, um, that I wouldn't probably be able to do otherwise. Um, my role in the firm has changed quite a bit. Um, over time, I don't do as much billable work as I used to do. I still do some, [00:06:30] but my primary role is just to work on the vision of the firm, um, and what we're doing. And then I really just try to encourage the, the team members and help them with whatever they've got going on and help them grow in their personal, um, you know, lives in their professional careers and things like that. Um, I know there's a lot of things out there about, you know, work, being family and all of that kind of stuff.

Shawn Gubler: And there's a lot of people that say that that's just a bunch of hooey and that it's not not a real thing. But [00:07:00] I personally don't believe that. I think that it is very much a real thing. I spend more time with the people here at the office than I do anybody other than my family. And so why not have it be that way? And we try really hard to be that. I'm sure you could find people that say, oh no, it's not really that way. But most of our team, there's a total of 13 of us here and most of our team, I would say, feel that way. We, um, you know, we do look out for each other and, and try to make sure that we help each other out everywhere [00:07:30] that we can. And it's just kind of one of those things when you help your staff do that, they help you do what you need to do as well. And and I just believe, you know, if one boat rises, they all need to rise. The clients, the the team members, the owners of the firm, everything. So yeah.

Marcus Dillon: That's good. And so it's you. And then your two partners, Katie and Andy. Yes. Right. Yeah. And then in addition to that, you'll have ten other team members that make up Conexus. Is that right? [00:08:00]

Shawn Gubler: That's correct.

Marcus Dillon: Yes. And you're based, uh, obviously you want to be able to get outdoors, uh, given where you're based in Saint George, uh, Utah, because, uh, I'm sure the exterior surroundings are a lot better to look at than interior surroundings in most situations.

Shawn Gubler: Yeah, it's a it's a unique place in the world. If people have ever been here, a lot of, uh, we're really close to five national parks. And, um, I think that Zion recently got ranked as the second most visited national [00:08:30] park in the US. And, um, it's just a really pretty diverse, uh, diverse area. So, yeah, um, it's not what people think of a lot of the times when they think of Utah, they think of Park City and the snow and the Olympics and all of that stuff. We're on the opposite end of the state, the Red rock and the. I guess a lot of people do think of that, but, um.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. Are you seeing a lot of a lot of team members, a lot of opportunity maybe with team and clients or people moving there? Or is it a lot of just the people that grew up in the [00:09:00] area similar to your story?

Shawn Gubler: No, it's it's growing like really, really fast right now. Uh, it's it's, uh, it's a retirement place. That's, uh, golf's big here. Um, outdoor stuff. Mountain biking is becoming huge. Hiking, if you like the outdoors, that's attracting a lot of people. Um, the hospital here, the medical system and facilities are phenomenal. That attracts a lot of people. And and so it is growing very rapidly. Um, in fact, I think it [00:09:30] for the metropolitan size that it is, it's usually in the top 2 or 3 in the country with growth. Um.

Marcus Dillon: So that's good.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. Let's talk about specifics if you're willing to share. Sean, um, where are you at revenue wise with the firm and then also with like ideal clients and what services people are taking you up on these days? Will you share a little bit more of that too?

Shawn Gubler: Yes. So the firm, um, right [00:10:00] now is just, uh, we're between 2 and $3 million in billing. Um, we we've been your traditional firm, uh, you know, in the way that we've done things over here is the only thing we never have done is offer audit services. Um, and don't really ever have any plans to do that. Um, so our, uh, right now, our ideal client is, you know, the business owner entrepreneur that that maybe has 2 or 3 entities, their hands in different things that are just needing some help making sense of all of it. I am a [00:10:30] little bit different, I think, with a lot of the firms that are out there right now, though, I still do believe that there's, um, some good work to do with individuals. If you get the right ones and you have the right systems down. And so we we still have that part of our business and we're going to keep doing that, um, uh, for the foreseeable future. And we've got some pretty decent systems in place that allow us to do that effectively and efficiently. Um, I one of my things is, I think you always go where people don't want to be working, and if you can do it right, you [00:11:00] know, there's there's opportunity there. And so we'll see. There's a lot changing in the industry out there right now and in the accounting world. So I still think that there's going to be something that comes out of that side and just trying to figure out how that is. And then we as as you guys know, there's more work out there than can be done right now. And I'm finding people that are just calling and begging for services that need help. And that's part of what I love about this profession is helping people. It's, uh, it's [00:11:30] just nice to be in a room with them and helping them work out whatever they need, whatever it is. It's that's a lot funner than doing a tax return or whatever. But, um, so.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah, are there I mean, that's great background. I think there is opportunities especially, you know, as we see evolution, um, in our industry and firms, there's going to be people that seek out firms that not saying that you but maybe that even like support paper. Right. Like there's just people that are going to pay a premium to be served the way that [00:12:00] they want to be served. And so as you think about your firm and where you're at today and your, um, the clients that you're accepting, do you have some non-negotiables, like it has to be this or you're definitely not a client?

Shawn Gubler: I would say we have more of those than we've had in the past where we're we are drawing some lines in the sand, so to speak, and saying, look, if you can't do this, the biggest one is you have to want to work with us. You have to want to, you know, we've all had the clients that complain [00:12:30] and and say that, you know, they're not getting enough from their CPA or whatever, but they don't want to listen or do the things that you that you ask them to do and implement the ideas that you give them. So that's the number one thing that we're looking at is how serious are you about getting some help, and how involved are you going to be in the process? Um, we're we're not magicians and we can't be. So if that's somebody's, um, expectation that I find that that's the hardest, hardest client to work with. Yeah. Um, so there there are some things [00:13:00] that we're doing. We still, you know, have some of those clients that want the paper and do those things. That's becoming far less than it has been. And even the people that have been reluctant to do that in the past are changing. And there's a certain amount of that that's going to be forced, no matter what. And helping them through that. You know, so far we've been successful in doing that. Um, I feel like so that's good.

Marcus Dillon: Well, you've talked about where y'all are at today and, you know, the 13, um, team members with partners [00:13:30] and then the revenue size, you mentioned that you've done this on your own and that you've mentioned that you've done this with partners. So give us a little bit of that background about the early days of Connexus kind of where it started and how it evolved, who came and went and, you know, the additions that they they gave to you along the way.

Shawn Gubler: Okay. So, yeah, I actually started and I was talking with Rachel about this the other day in industry. Um, I was controller for a communications company before I got into public accounting, and [00:14:00] I wanted to get licensed. I wanted to come in, um, and do this, um, and a lot of that tied back to the people that I had watched growing up that were CPAs in the area, that I thought they have a pretty good life. And they, you know, they've got it figured out. And so I kind of did it backwards from what a lot of people, a lot of people do. And I think that experience has helped a lot. And so, um, I started out with a very small firm I intentionally found, you know, the smallest firm that I, I could [00:14:30] and went to work with them with the intention of becoming a partner as soon as I could. And, um, I had family members, and I than I had people that I knew and clients that were wanting me to do things. So I brought a little bit of a base with me when I came into the the practice to start out. And, um, I was with that partner for about ten years. Um, he was a professor and, and wanted to go get a doctor's degree and some stuff like that, so that, that one, that partnership ran its course.

Shawn Gubler: We split [00:15:00] and for a while I did did my own thing. And then, um, my partner Andy, that came on, we met each other on the back of an accounting class, first year of, um, of, uh, college. And, um, back then it was really hard to find staff, and people were buying firms and getting rid of the clients and, uh, keeping the staff. And so he had moved to Southern California, and I begged him to come back and work, and and he did. And he worked his way into being a partner [00:15:30] and is still here. So. And then we've had other partners that have come and gone. Um, it's just kind of the nature of what happens. And we've tried to set up, you know, the firm where it's it's never easy, but where it's easier to do that kind of stuff as you need to, because reality is that things change. Um, that's always going to happen. And so we've learned the hard way of how not to do it. And then we finally have, I think, a way to where when it does happen, it's a little bit easier.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. [00:16:00]

Shawn Gubler: And so yeah, that's that's kind of the firm and how it went, we went through the 2008 downturn and and you know weathered that and everything. And that's that's about when the first partnership kind of split apart and and things. So it all it all worked out well. And I wouldn't trade any of it. Some of it was really hard. I wouldn't go back and do it again. But um.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah, it's uh, it's nice to reflect on. It's nice to remember, you know, that journey. But [00:16:30] at the same time, you wouldn't trade your current days for your previous days. Ease. Yeah, most. Most of the time.

Shawn Gubler: Yep.

Rachel Dillon: I know that, um, I know that firm owners as as they begin to grow their firm and as they begin to feel that need to have another person who is highly skilled and is very bought into the company to continue to grow, they start considering these options and then often talk themselves out of elevating a partner [00:17:00] or seeking out a partner. So will you say a little bit about maybe each of the partners, maybe just the two that are still currently with you, but what are some of the characteristics or the qualities that you looked for in people to be a partner or that just became apparent to you? Maybe that were different than other team members? Um, that kind of gave you the confidence to elevate them.

Shawn Gubler: Yeah. Um, a lot of it's just driven off of what you need at the time. Right. And where [00:17:30] you're at and what people's abilities are. Um, so, Andy, um, when he started with us, he he had a bachelor's degree in accounting. He got his master's degree, and he just picked it up and did well and started gaining clients. And, um, and so it was a natural, you know, for him to progress in his career and to, to advance. He, he it was just where that needed to happen. And it was time and, um, and [00:18:00] it worked. And the firm was getting big enough to where, um, we could do that. And then Katie, interestingly enough, has a degree in communications, doesn't know anything about accounting, and doesn't want to know anything about accounting. Um, for the most part, um, and I think that she would she she really does. She actually worked for another CPA firm in northern Utah. Her and her husband lived down here because he got transferred here. He worked for UPS, um, and she was working for an [00:18:30] investment firm that we did some work with, and I just met her and was impressed with her and told her, if you ever leave, call me. And and she called one day and we weren't quite ready. And I said, well, if you're good enough that we'll hire you and, and then, um, over time, she worked her way up to where, um, there was some ownership there for her as well. It's it's just one of those things where I feel like people that help you get to where you're at. These are a little bit of the pie, and there's definitely different ways to do that. And I think that, [00:19:00] you know what, I do some of that differently. Yeah, probably. But I still would do it and still have a desire for the young people that are coming up to be able to have that opportunity if they want it.

Marcus Dillon: Right. Yeah. Um, you know, the skill set of communications or the background of communications, uh, it's always great to have, especially at the leadership team and help drive, uh, both internal and external communications. That's key.

Shawn Gubler: Absolutely. I mean, that's, Minutes. Uh, [00:19:30] and it's it's I've had to really change my thinking about how you look at people and what their skill sets are. And, um, look in nontraditional, um, places to do it. But there's so much of it that that smart people can pick up and learn and and do and do a really good job at if they have the right skills and, and um, so I think it's just being open to try different things than people traditionally have and look in places that people haven't normally do. I'm a little bit envious of you. I need an IT guy like you've got, um, [00:20:00] for my next hire, I think. So I we've got a great company, and I keep trying to bribe my guy to come and work for me, but he he's a part owner in the company, and he's not ready to do that yet, so.

Marcus Dillon: You never know. Angel, uh, who's our director of technology? He used to own an IT company as well. And then they they sold and he, you know, kind of did his thing for a couple of years. And the opportunity came along, the stars aligned. And, you know, the rest is history, I guess, as they would say. So. Don't. Don't discount [00:20:30] that. Uh, that dream, Sean. It may be a reality.

Shawn Gubler: You just have to keep planting those seeds whenever the chance comes up because you don't. Like I say, the one thing that's going to happen is change is always going to happen for people. And and, um, it's okay to put what your ideal ideas and thoughts are out there. And it's amazing how often, you know, that comes back around sometimes when people know what you're thinking.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. And it's it's just like you've probably seen with Andy and Katie and other team members. I think, you know, whenever you [00:21:00] have a skill set that's so different and you can kind of give somebody a project and then they run with it because it's natural. It's what they it's what they do. It's what's ingrained versus you give that same project to somebody that's got an accounting background and it's it's hard work because you don't think that way or you don't have that experience. So, uh, love that. Love the fact that you can probably give Katie some of those projects and we can give Angel some of those projects and both are, you know, very, very well equipped, [00:21:30] um, to be successful with those. So it's good. I guess the, you know, talking about team members, talking about Angel, talking about Katie, um, you know, we had we had talked a while back, you know, where y'all had locally. You had an overabundance of talent that was available kind of in your in your market. Is that still, uh, a reality or are you kind of seeing some shifting that's happened over the years as it relates to hiring and hiring trends, as you all continue [00:22:00] to kind of build, uh, connects us to what it what it is today.

Shawn Gubler: Yeah, definitely. It's it's shifted and, um, the and it was at a certain level that there was an overabundance. Right. It's, um, there's always been the challenge when you get up into the higher levels and things like that. But Utah has a little bit of a unique culture, and I'm probably biased. There's a lot of people that want to come here and live here that either grew up here in the state or have, you know, ties back here. And so [00:22:30] there's retired people that come back that want to work a little bit. There's, um, a couple of really good universities around here that that have very good accounting programs and stuff that are turning out, um, kids that want internships and stuff like that. So that's where we were able to find people is, you know, through through that. And then you get them in, you work with them for a little while and you see which ones are good and, and, uh, kind of get a pick at it. And you have to find the people that want, you know, this type of a firm. Um, it's a different, different world [00:23:00] here. And it's not for, for everybody. You know, there's a lot of people that want to go with the big firms and do do those big things, but there are a certain number of them that don't. And like this. And it's just just finding them and willing to to work with them and invest some time in them. Um, again, if you invest in them and you find the right ones, they invest back in you. So. Yeah.

Marcus Dillon: Um, well, I know at one time you had said that some of the bigger firms were actually setting up, you know, shop and in Saint George in, in your area just to be [00:23:30] able to hire folks. And then they would go to an office and then they would use that talent nationwide, if you will, out of that Utah office. Is that still happening or is that kind of slowed down? Because I know at one point you were almost you were kind of worried about poaching and things like that.

Shawn Gubler: Yes. It's definitely still still happening. I mean, the big, big firms do have small, small offices here. They're not after clients here or anything like that, but they have. And we we've lost, uh, you know, employees to them. We've had them [00:24:00] solicit other employees and, and like I say, those that want that experience, that. That's great. Um, you know, I can't I'm never going to be able to provide that to them. And, um, so yeah, I think that just I don't know that it's as big of a deal as it used to be because of remote work and all of those things. Um, you know, just that everything. It's just a different scale here than than where most places are at. And so to me, it looked like the firms were coming in here [00:24:30] and, and uh, wanting to hire people that lived here and pay them less money than they would in the cities that offices that they were working out of. And I'm like, you know, that's what they were doing. Yeah. And I still think that they are a little bit, but I don't think it's as big a deal as it used to be. Um, no.

Marcus Dillon: It's.

Shawn Gubler: Good because people are, you know, it's just changed and it will continue to evolve and change. And I'm not quite sure, you know, as everybody's getting not everybody, but a lot of people are getting called back to the office with these companies. Um, it's going to be interesting to see what [00:25:00] that shift does. I don't know how much it will impact our industry, but I think that there will be some impact.

Rachel Dillon: Absolutely. Well, thinking about, um, kind of your time in the accounting industry and specifically with your firm, we'll say you're a seasoned firm owner, um, now. And so thinking about that and where you've grown your firm to. For some people, they're still reaching and striving to get to the point of where you are [00:25:30] today. So thinking about that, what what are your current goals and initiatives for the firm? Because some people would consider, like, you've made it, you're done. You can just coast now and sit back and not worry about anything. Um, I think some people think that once you get to 1 million or 2 million or whatever, that revenue mark is in their mind, that that means you have it all figured out and things are easy and you just sit back. So what are you guys? What are your goals or current initiatives that you're currently [00:26:00] focused on?

Shawn Gubler: Well, I think that, um, the biggest thing for me, obviously, when you're where I'm at, you start thinking about what does exit look like, what what happens, you know, with clients, what happens with staff members and things like that. There's there's a lot of things that you have to consider and factor into that. And so you think about that a little bit. But the thing is I don't you never really I feel like you never really arrive. There's no such thing as just getting there and coasting. You're you're [00:26:30] either moving forward and becoming better or you're going backwards because everything around you is changing. And so it's been interesting. Marcus and I talked about this at one point. There's these plateaus that you hit, no matter what size you are, where you've just got to break through that ceiling and kind of, um, you know, figure out how you tweak things and what you do to get to the next level. And they're all a little bit different. Um, it seems like and I would say right now, we're probably at one of those plateaus that we're working our way through and starting to crack that that [00:27:00] ceiling a little bit. But it takes a lot of work to do that. And, and that's, you know, I think, Marcus, when we talked, you know, the 1 million to 2 million is probably easier than the, you know, the next step, whatever it is that you want to go to. And, and there's just different plateaus in there for what you're doing that are really interesting. And so. Right now our focus is trying to, you know, leverage the technology, just figure out better ways to. Get our our processes in and and provide [00:27:30] better and additional services to our clients that they need. Is what they need changes.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah.

Shawn Gubler: So it's you know we want to keep growing I do I have I know we talk. About you know, exit strategies and things like that a lot in in different meetings that we're in. For me as of right now, mine is to organically let the guys that are coming behind take this thing and go with it at some point in time. And so I want there to be something good there for them and for the clients and, and [00:28:00] things like that.

Marcus Dillon: Um, yeah. No, I think, uh, you know, the, The Plateaus and Rachel and I were actually talking about, uh, plateaus earlier today, uh, this morning. And I had a call with another friend of ours earlier this week, uh, collective member. And he's, you know at that 1.6 plateau he feels and it was like, what what did you do to break through that and get to two? And, um, you know, it's always helpful to think back and [00:28:30] like, you know, this is what we did. But at the time, I don't know that we felt like we were breaking through anything. Right? We just kept falling forward. And, um, you know, as you and I even talked, it was like that, that growth from 2 to 3 felt really painful and longer. It took longer than I thought it should have. Right. And so obviously at DBA, like, you know, that's the reason why we've done some, you know, some inorganic growth with an acquisition obviously continuing to, uh, you know, encourage [00:29:00] organic growth as well through different means. But yeah, those plateaus can be a scary thing. Um, I think with anything, you know, it's one of those where you just have to be mindful of the season that you're in and not get hung up. You know that you're not progressing forward, and you have to give yourself grace to to realize where you came from, right? Because you know, those those seasons and definitely not being at 3 million, you can't get hung up on that. I think that's just [00:29:30] a vanity metric. You have to be thankful for the team around you. Um, and the way that we've looked at it, and I think you're of the same mindset as the top line growth provides for budget, to provide for opportunities for team members that you want to do this with, and for those team members that are coming behind you, like you said, for them to own something that exists and lasts beyond the owner, uh, the current owner, so to speak. So you've got to build something a little bit bigger to stand alone. [00:30:00] Uh, not on not all around one person.

Shawn Gubler: Right. I think that my dad talked about that a lot, and he just called it leaving meat on the bone. You know, if you what ends up happening and what my experience has been, is you let that go, and you do that for the staff and things like that, or whoever's there, you end up getting way more back than you ever thought you were going to, um, that you can do more with at that point. So to me, I just I've always had that desire, and I may not get as much money [00:30:30] out of it or whatever when it's time to retire, but that's okay. I think I'm okay with that. So.

Marcus Dillon: Well, that also that just tells you that you need to take the spring break and go on trip, you know? Um, that's the reason for it.

Shawn Gubler: Next year I'm going to shoot for two. I'm going to do one at the beginning of tax season and one in the middle of tax season. So.

Marcus Dillon: Hey, I'll be there. I'll be there to cheer you on, man. That's good.

Shawn Gubler: Well, it's, uh, like I said, I highly recommend it. It's, uh, it's been it probably has been one of the biggest things I've done that have changed. Changed things. [00:31:00] Being able to let go, um, during that time. And it was really hard to do the first time. Really hard.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah.

Rachel Dillon: Can you talk a little bit about that? What things led up to being able to to do that. What were some of the steps that you took ahead of just walking out of the office during the middle of tax season?

Shawn Gubler: Um, a lot of communication with the staff that here's what's going to happen this year. Here's how we're going to do it. We're going to get through it. But I wasn't the only one that was nervous. You [00:31:30] know, it will be fine. Um, a lot of planning, um, different things like that. And and, um, really, it does work better sometimes when we're not here as owners. So, um, you find that out and, and staff thrived underneath us. So it was just just daring to do something different than what people were doing. Like, I don't know, it's. And like I said, my partners do it now too. So. And we used to not let staff take time [00:32:00] off. Now we let them take time off. Uh, we still keep our office closed for Fridays during tax season. And it really has gotten better for everybody.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah.

Shawn Gubler: So I don't know if that answers your question or if you want to. Yeah.

Rachel Dillon: No. Yeah, absolutely. That answers it. And tell me a little bit more about delegation. And I'll say it like that. Because clearly, to be able to walk away at the arguably the busiest time of the year means that [00:32:30] you were able to delegate and that you were able to elevate other leaders besides yourself. So what were kind of the steps that you took? What what was either your mindset or, um, even your approach to doing that and helping others to lead team members besides yourself?

Shawn Gubler: It actually was just the mindset of saying, I've got to do this. We were just kind of at a point in our, our life where my wife said, look, we're [00:33:00] you're missing out on some things here that you're never going to get back. And I had a buddy that I was talking with that that kind of said the same thing and, um, and just letting go of that vine and just saying, okay, you know, and, and understanding that, hey, there's going to be some mistakes that happen. There's going to be some things that don't work out the way that, um, you think they're going to work out. But at the end of the day, that's where the growth happens for you and for staff members and everything else. If you don't let [00:33:30] those those things happen, people are going to be stuck where they're at forever. And so just just changing my mindset and and then you talked earlier about extending grace. You have to extend grace to the to the staff, you know, when they when they're figuring it out or the team members and as they're learning and growing and and then the more you do that and the more they do that, the more they can take on and the more more everybody's getting to where they want to get to.

Marcus Dillon: No. It's good. I think what I see a lot of times [00:34:00] is it helps you become a better advisor to your clients, too, because your clients are trying to figure that out. Like, how can they remove themselves from the business? And they if they see you doing that and you elevating others, they latch on to that and they think about, hey, like, not only do I want that, but he's able to do it. So I'm going to go learn from somebody and lean in a little bit more. Um, so many of the conversations I have with the clients that I'm still able to serve are, you know, hey, I've [00:34:30] worked myself out of XYZ role or out of the business altogether, and now I feel guilty. What do I do with my time? Uh, so I'm almost one of those, uh, you know, sounding boards to them to be like, okay, whatever you do, don't go. Don't go blow something up in that business just to fix it. Right. Because that's what we're all, you know, gravitating back to. You want to feel needed. So you go cause a problem or create a fire to put out yourself. Um, so it's funny, [00:35:00] like how the, the growth that you experience can actually you can turn to your side, to your peers. You know, whether they're in the industry or whether they're a client or a friend, and also encourage them to do the same thing and be support for one another throughout that journey.

Shawn Gubler: Well, it's interesting because that's what it turns into. Those are the clients that I'm dealing with now, and a lot of times that stuff's just sitting down and I'm a business owner just like they are, and we're just talking about things that work and haven't worked. I learned as much from them as they [00:35:30] do from me sometimes. And those are the relationships that are really fun for us to do, and seeing staff develop those relationships that before you were the only one that had them with different clients, creates growth. I mean, it's incredible. They're able to expand, you know, what you did and and take and, you know, double and triple that. That's a lot of how Andy became a partner was letting go of, you know, a bunch of stuff and saying, you take these. And he turned them into far more than I ever would have been able to. Um, so, [00:36:00] yeah, it's it's just an interesting process and it's a lot more enjoyable to do do that than it is to, you know, do the old stuff that we used to do all the time.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. And I think the, you know, as, as we see the, the changes that are going through the industry and you know, how the big firms are only getting bigger. Um, and how there's going to be a wider, a wider gap between, you know, some of those big players and some of the others that remain, including us. Right. If we stay on [00:36:30] that smaller side, um, the boutique firms is where, you know, the great things are going to happen, those deep relationships. And you can have people like ourselves or Andy or new team members that walk alongside those business owners who are going through very similar challenges versus the big firms are going to feel very corporate like, like corporations. And are are those clients going to get that same experience, you know, kind of sharing life with those team members that could, [00:37:00] at the end of the day, you know, not have that same experience that somebody in a boutique firm does.

Shawn Gubler: Right. I mean, you hope you hope that all of your clients get to where they need that big firm at some point in time, and they've outgrown that success, right?

Marcus Dillon: Oh, yeah.

Shawn Gubler: For a long time. You're afraid of that. I'm going to lose this client to somebody that can do more than I can. To me, that's how you find success. If every one of your clients get there, they'll end up referring people to you that need your services more than they will the new firm? Yeah, a lot of the time. And so I think [00:37:30] not being afraid of that and being just, um, you know, just I had to go through that mind shift and say, hey, when a client needs to go to a bigger firm, that that means we did our job and we did a good job.

Marcus Dillon: I think that's a great point, Shawn, because, um, you know, being transparent and open. I was in a client, uh, meeting earlier today, and, you know, we're talking about cleaning up books and all of this and, um, making sure that they understood their tax implications and what an extra $100,000 of income does to their tax [00:38:00] situation, which we've all been there and can nod along that, you know, we do that on daily basis. And then you have to say, well where did that extra cash go? And that's a deeper conversation because they have no idea about paying off debt or loans. But the conversation kind of shifted to, you know, well, what's what's the bigger plan here? Like you're in your 60s. Like there's got to be a succession event. And sure, like we start that conversation and we're going to lose a client at the end of the day because they may sell their business and we don't have as [00:38:30] many services we can provide for them if they're just an individual. But who else is going to lead that conversation? And, you know, if, if them, uh, thinking about things in that way and us talking about a quality of earnings and due diligence that a buyer is going to require them to go through, and they're going to want the cleanest books possible, and they're going to want to pay top dollar for somebody that has chosen to run this as a business and say, stay lean and make great decisions.

Marcus Dillon: All [00:39:00] of a sudden they have a new goal, right? And and they can keep that top of mind. And, you know, you have to be mindful and more long term, uh, vision than short term in that, you know, aspect that you're helping them get to a place where, you know, they they are really called to go and, you know, they're going to monetize and you may be left with one less client, but at the end of the day, you know, that's what it's about versus, you know, just seeing them through and kind of hiding that conversation [00:39:30] and hoping the succession conversation never comes up because we're all going to have a succession event. We're all going to die. I think it's the quicker that we can address that and help people get to the ultimate, the optimum, optimal goal, the better.

Shawn Gubler: Yeah, that's it's so, so much anymore. When I meet with clients, that's where my my conversation starts is what are you trying to do? What are your goals? Um, yeah. You know, and if all it is, is just to get the taxes to zero. I'm not so sure that that's [00:40:00] the client that that we can do the best job for. We can do a good job for them.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah.

Shawn Gubler: But it's just a different it's just a different type of service.

Marcus Dillon: They can prepay accounting and tax fees for multiple years, and we'll gladly take that to help them reduce their income to zero.

Shawn Gubler: But it's just not as fun as.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah, exactly.

Shawn Gubler: For me, it's, uh, it's fun and it's nice doing that. But helping people achieve whatever their goals are. Again, success to me is just watching [00:40:30] somebody get to where they want to get to. And oftentimes that is outgrowing what I've decided that I want to be, um, for a firm for for me and for my family. And that's okay. Like, I don't there's the way the US economy works, and in my lifetime, it's going to be this way. There's going to be small businesses, and those owners that sell are going to go start other things typically, and they'll come back to you with some of that stuff. So yeah, it just seems to keep multiplying. Um, a lot of the time.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah, that's [00:41:00] a good thing to remember for sure.

Rachel Dillon: Of all the people, Sean, that we get to work with and call our friends and peers in the industry, I would say the most successful all have some common character traits, and an abundance mindset is the first. Everyone who has an abundance mindset seems to be successful. Just knowing that they're not worried that everyone is their competition or there's never going to be enough. Um, and holding back [00:41:30] from people because of that. I think also the generosity of those people, the desire for excellence. And you just have all of those things that people are so more important to you than anything else. And it doesn't matter which person. Like just people in general. And so I think that that is really what sets you and your firm apart for sure. You're thinking about those things and how successful and how kind and [00:42:00] how great of work you do for clients today. If you were starting a firm over starting brand new from scratch, is there anything that you would do differently or maybe faster than what you did when you actually started the firm?

Shawn Gubler: Um, I think looking back at it, um, and I think just about everybody that starts a firm or has a business, uh, we don't say no enough to things we'll kind of take and we'll do, you know, anything [00:42:30] that we need to to kind of, um, make a living and and cut our little, you know, niche out in what we're doing. Um, I think being a little bit more slow and methodical about what I did would be the thing that I would go back and do. And I think a lot of people say that. The other thing I think that I would do, and I still struggle with this sometimes, it'll just be a little bit quicker to take action. We know what to do. We know what needs to happen. But having the courage [00:43:00] to do it sometimes and, um, you know, just take that step and do it is is, it's it's hard to to jump over the cliff sometimes still. And, uh, but that that's probably what I would go back and change and, and just, you know, there are times where you need to slow down in times where you need to speed up. But looking back at my career, there's times where I needed to speed up more than I needed to slow down, I think, and and do some of the things I knew I needed to do, but just didn't have the courage to do. And [00:43:30] that's where you guys have been super helpful. And just the people that are in the groups that have been really helpful, listening to them and the things that they've done and the different things and seeing how it works out and sometimes how it doesn't work out for people is it's been invaluable. I can't it would be much, much harder to do it on your own. So that's what I really enjoy with with the group and what I appreciate you guys for and, and your efforts, [00:44:00] um, that you've, you've put in.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah.

Rachel Dillon: I think something else that you mentioned to me earlier on a call was, um, you I think you just said, like, advice that you would give to someone else is to kind of delegate earlier, identify those leaders and and start handing stuff off even earlier. So maybe that's one of those faster things. But I think that's important for people to hear because you you're usually in a point of those growing [00:44:30] pains that we were kind of mentioning as we're trying to move to that next revenue mark, we start getting tight on capacity, we start getting tight on systems, start getting pushed, and you just don't know where you can go, um, where you can kind of get extra minutes in the day to train somebody up or to have a mistake be made that then has to be fixed. Um, and so I think just giving people the permission and the courage to just go ahead [00:45:00] and do it. And the quicker you start doing that, the faster you get over that learning curve and then those things become easier to delegate. Just even different things become easier to delegate because you understand kind of the foresight and planning that's going to be needed to make that a successful delegation.

Shawn Gubler: Right. Yeah. The other thing I think of as, as you're talking that I probably would do different and I know you people read this in books and it's out there a lot, but hire people that are smarter than you [00:45:30] are and that are going to push you. I think for a long time, um, and even still, sometimes you're afraid to hire those people because of what they're going to think coming in or what their perception is going to be. And, and, um, if you get the right ones, you don't need to be afraid of it. They'll be better. You'll be better. Um, and it's taken me a while to figure that out. Um, I think so. It that's the thing that I would say, too, is look, look for people that are. And everybody knows that. But doing it [00:46:00] is a doing it is a different thing. You know, it's hard.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. And I remember, you know, when we were building the firm and at different stages of life, you you feel comfortable. Um, hey, I'm willing to do this project or build this business up to the level that I know I can control everything. You know, whenever you get over that realization and the law of the lid and everything that people have talked about, like the business starts to grow beyond [00:46:30] the one person, right, whether it's you or some other leader. Um, so I do think even like when I look back, um, on some of the decisions that I wish I would have made sooner, it would be that always hiring really smart people and probably hiring people that would challenge me, or I encourage the people that were on my team to challenge me. Um, you know, you may already have a challenger on your team. And, you know, we just we went through the, uh, the exercise [00:47:00] that came along with the book, The Five Dysfunctions of a team here with with our whole team recently. And, I mean, it's it's a unique blend that every one of us as teams has come together. Right? And I think it's it's one of those, um, cool things that just the individual personalities, the individual talents that contribute to each of our firms, each of our businesses, each of our families. Like it's it's beautiful how that's all woven together. And then for for [00:47:30] you to embrace and encourage people to use their unique gifts, to use their voice. Um, that's when things can get really cool and really grow beyond any one person.

Shawn Gubler: And it's it's it is fun to watch that, you know. And that's what you talk about Katie earlier. That's what she is in our firm. And a lot of why I hired her is because she challenges me. She pushes me. I mean, we'll go. We'll go knee to knee and toe to toe on some things. And and [00:48:00] I needed that. And but it took us a while to figure that out. And we're still figuring it out. Honestly, it's, uh, you never totally get that figured out because she's changing. I'm changing. The firm's changing. But, uh, you need that counterbalance and that that. Yeah. Don't be afraid to hire somebody that's going to push you and challenge you for sure.

Marcus Dillon: Well, and in a communication background, too, like communication and conflict and healthy conflict and how you can go toe to toe, but then at the end of the day, shake hands and still, you know, be compadres [00:48:30] at the end of the day, like, that's that's where the great stuff happens.

Shawn Gubler: Yeah. It's, uh, it's just good to have that different dynamic.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah.

Rachel Dillon: And as we speak about kind of pushing and challenging each other. I know, Sean, that we've touched on kind of the amazing peer network that you've built over years of time being in the industry. Um, we've touched on kind of community and we've touched on mastermind groups and what you've gotten out of that. And I just want to talk just for a second [00:49:00] about the one on one advisory that you, just like us, have utilized over the years for your firm, um, specifically right now with Christine. Is there anything that has been more helpful, uh, having that one on one advisory relationship again?

Shawn Gubler: It's just when you get with somebody and they understand your firm and you open up with them and they know what's going on, they know you. They know the challenges that you're having. It's just a different level of, of, [00:49:30] um, advice that comes. I think that's there. And, um, you know, early on when we did that, um, with the prior group, I don't think we utilized it the way that we should have. To be honest with you, it took me a while to figure out how that really could work and what it was. So yeah, I mean, it's like we were talking about before, uh, Christine comes in and she can figure out something that I've been trying to figure out for 2 or 3 weeks in a matter [00:50:00] of 2 or 3 minutes and say, here's what you're going to do and make it look so easy. And and it's like, man, why? Why was that so hard? And it's just because she's seen things that over a vast number of firms that I haven't seen or that I couldn't see in her experience, that's different than somebody that's, you know, running a firm day in and day out. She's not or I'm not seeing the variety that she's seen in her career and stuff like that. So to me, that's what's been like incredible.

Rachel Dillon: Um, [00:50:30] same for us. We get so close and like bogged down both emotionally and just from the workload, like amount of things that need to be done and need decisions on just as firm owners. And so having someone with an outside perspective. But industry knowledge and industry experience with firms that are just like ours in revenue size and team size and tools that we're using is so helpful. [00:51:00] And it literally helps sort things out that we think through for weeks or months on end. We lose sleep over it and they hear, you know, kind of hear the challenge that we're working through. And within minutes have like, here's your next three action items. Go do it. And then when you finish those we'll talk about what's next. And so it's just incredible the amount of progress. And I think the amount of simplicity that an outside advisor can bring [00:51:30] to inside of a firm. So those to me, we obviously we're members of collective just like everyone else and have utilized, um, one on one advisory. Or some people call it coaching. And that has been game changing for us as well.

Shawn Gubler: Yeah, I would say that it's probably the single biggest thing that help us has helped us break through. Um, you know, some of those plateaus and ceilings that we've hit and [00:52:00] we're at the point right now where we really need it to, um, you know, we've gone as far as I think that we can, we would be able to figure it out, but it's going to take us a lot longer to do it on our own than with that, that help. So yeah. Yeah. Just hope I don't ever have to change my, my coach again.

Rachel Dillon: So I know I know that that is the hard part. If a relationship has to end and you have to start all over with somebody else, that is like heartbreaking. Uh, it we [00:52:30] we have lost sleep over things like that in the past as well. So definitely, um, like to make sure that there isn't a lot of transition with advisors, because that that is a strong relationship that's built and a lot of, uh, growth and impact happens between the firm and advisor.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah.

Shawn Gubler: Reality is that it is going to change at some point in time. That's just life, right?

Rachel Dillon: And we're not going to think about that, Sean. Ever.

Shawn Gubler: Well, [00:53:00] I mean, it's a good thing, though. It should be celebrated. Usually people are are going on to whether it's us or the people we work with, are going on to better opportunities. And that's what you want to see happen. Most of the time it's a good thing. Even though it's hard, the good things in life usually are the hardest things. So, um.

Marcus Dillon: Well said.

Rachel Dillon: Absolutely. Well, Sean, we thank you so much for sharing, uh, details of your firm sharing about your journey, just, you know, for the sure [00:53:30] fact of helping others. And so we thank you for being a guest on the podcast, and I know others are going to learn a lot from your story.

Shawn Gubler: Thank you for the opportunity. I appreciate everything that you guys have done and that all of your team members have done, and your willingness to to open up and share things. A lot of people are not willing to do that. So that's what's been really, really good. All of the members of the groups and and you guys. Um, it's I can't thank you enough. [00:54:00]

Marcus Dillon: Appreciate that. All right. Sean. Well, I'm sure you got a vacation to get off to. Um, but it was so good to have you. Thanks again. Man.

Shawn Gubler: Thank you.

Rachel Dillon: Thanks for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed the conversation and want to learn more, be sure to visit. You can schedule a meeting directly with me, Rachel by clicking on the Contact Us page. Be sure to subscribe, like, and share so you don't miss any future episodes. We look forward [00:54:30] to connecting with you soon!