Who's Really the BOSS?

There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript

Rachel Dillon: Welcome to Who's Really the Boss podcast. I'm Rachel Dillon, and along with my husband, Marcus Dillon, we share the joys and challenges of leading a $3 million accounting firm together. From team structure to growth strategies, we share our leadership successes and failures so you can avoid the mistakes we have made and grow a valuable accounting firm.

Rachel Dillon: Welcome back to another episode [00:00:30] of Who's Really the Boss podcast. We have Marcus with us today.

Marcus Dillon: Hey, thanks for having me back.

Rachel Dillon: And we have special guests with us from Hodges and Hagen Rader, business advisors and tax accountants. Gwen and Anna, thank you so much for joining us today.

Gwen Hodges: Thank you for having us. We appreciate being here.

Anna Hergenrader: Yep. Happy to be here.

Marcus Dillon: Well, hey, uh, it looks like both of y'all are in different locations. Uh, similar to Rachel and me. You know, we're in, uh, we're actually in one location but in different windows. [00:01:00] So give us a little bit of background about the firm. Share just what you feel called to and love the fact that you all are in different locations. So maybe some of that can be shared as well.

Gwen Hodges: Sure, sure. So a little history of our firm is we started Hodges and Hergenrother in October of 2023. Um, and I had worked together for 20 plus years, um, and decided to venture out on our own when we did that. She's. She lives in Wilmington [00:01:30] and I live in Raleigh, North Carolina, and so we decided to have two offices. Um, so we jumped off and got two offices in addition to starting a firm. So so that was that was a big a big jump there.

Anna Hergenrader: We're all or nothing kind of people evidently. Evidently. Yeah.

Rachel Dillon: And Gwen give a little bit of background on just you and even your family outside of the office.

Gwen Hodges: Sure, sure. [00:02:00] So I, um, am local to North Carolina. I grew up in eastern North Carolina. Uh, went to, uh, Meredith College. So here in Raleigh, have lived in Raleigh my entire adult life. And I have three children. Um, I have a 22 year old daughter who's now a teacher. I have a 20 year old son who is starting his career right this minute, and I have a 15 year old son that is trying to finish freshman year of high school. Um, I love it. [00:02:30] Yeah, I love NC state football games and, um, Disney World and traveling. Um, so that's a little bit about me.

Rachel Dillon: All right, Anna, you're up.

Anna Hergenrader: My turn. Um, so we're in Wilmington, and that's right close to Wrightsville Beach. We're just across the bridge from Wrightsville Beach. So, um, and the office, we bought a office condo, and it's also just right across the bridge from Wrightsville Beach. So it's not a terrible place to be. It's a lot of fun. Um, but Gwen and I are really. We're. We're just two [00:03:00] hours away, so we do see each other every few weeks or so. Probably. We'd like to see each other and be around each other, work together a lot more in person than we actually get to. Um, but we do two hours. I mean, that's some people's commute in larger cities. So, um, yeah. So we're not too terribly far apart. But I was actually born in Raleigh but grew up, kind of navigated up and down from Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, and just love the beach. But I grew up in Georgia. Really, um, went to high school there. And then I went to [00:03:30] Campbell University, which is in North Carolina, and then Raleigh, where Grant and I worked together for a long time. So we were with the firm that we were both with. Um, for I was there 20 years. She was there 30 years. Um, and she, I believe she she might have hired me. Um, I can't remember. But her, she did she might have hired me and, um, her daughter that is now a teacher. I just I don't know why it specifically sticks in my mind, but I remember going to her house and holding [00:04:00] Jenna when she was born. So we've known each other for. And we've known each other for a really long time. So, um. Yeah, we're pretty sure we enjoy each other. We can tolerate all the good and all the bad. There are no secrets, and there are no, no hidden things. They're all out there.

Marcus Dillon: Well, that's that's recommended for partners, right? You know, all types. Each other's strengths and weaknesses. So.

Rachel Dillon: And Anna, do you have kiddos as well?

Anna Hergenrader: I do, I do, um, I'm all in the teenage [00:04:30] mix. I have a 12 year old daughter that is going into well, her awards were today. She's going into seventh grade. And then my my oldest son is a freshman in high school, and he and Gwen's youngest are within six months of each other. So we get to share funny teenage boy and girl stories. I pray for patience, and she tells me that my daughter's going to make it and it's going to be okay. So, um, there's that too. And my wonderful, fabulous husband, um, [00:05:00] that has helped us along the way. Um, with all things. It was probably all three of us in the boat doing a lot of this stuff. So, um, yes, he's in sales and travels, and of course, he's not around for the last week of school, so.

Rachel Dillon: All right, well, we just talked about teenagers, so let's move straight into best pieces of advice you guys have ever received. And I did give you a little bit of prep work ahead of recording, but I do really think this is [00:05:30] probably the hardest, uh, thing to prepare, because I'm sure we all have received a lot of advice over the years. Um, so your advice doesn't have to relate to raising teenagers, but let's have you start. Gwen, best piece of advice you've ever received?

Gwen Hodges: Sure. Um. These two is two kind of things that go together. But the first one is just trust your gut. That's if you can trust your gut, you're good. And then get out of your comfort zone, which is something [00:06:00] that, um, this is doing because this is our first, um, endeavor with a podcast. So get out of your comfort zone and trust your gut. Those are those are two things that I live by now.

Anna Hergenrader: Those are good.

Gwen Hodges: Good.

Rachel Dillon: All right. Anna, I was.

Anna Hergenrader: Wondering what she was going to. I was wondering what she was going to use. So that's a good one. Um. Mine's easy. It came when you said it yesterday. It came immediately to mind. My grandma. My grandmother. Um, it was 25 years ago, and she was in her late 80s, [00:06:30] and, um, she, you know, we were getting kind of close to the end, and I went and got to spend a weekend with her, which was was all I was in Georgia at the time, and she was in North Carolina, and I got to spend the weekend with her. And we just watched movies and and I remember pat me on the hand and said, sweetheart, you are the captain of your own boat. You're in charge. And if you look up and don't love where you are, it's your fault. And if you want to head someplace else, it's only up to you. So. And that just [00:07:00] about applies to everything in life. So that's a yeah, that's a good one. Um.

Marcus Dillon: It's amazing. Uh, we we've asked that question of plenty of people that have been on the podcast, and it's always really cool to see, like previous generations, the advice that they give that then lives on. And you'll probably tell that to your kids and your grandkids and everything like that. So it's just amazing how how those live on. So, um, but love what you've already shared. Um, and love the fact [00:07:30] that 30 years at a firm, 20 years with a firm. So I'm sure we're going to pull out some of the trust your gut. You're a captain of your own ship, uh, over this conversation, uh, to talk about what it looks like and the firm that you currently have built. So, uh, Rachel, I don't want to jump in or jump the the ahead too far. But what have we got next?

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. So I would love to hear some details. Um, we have almost all accountants listening to [00:08:00] this podcast, and so I think probably some ears perked up of starting a firm after very, um, successful long careers and starting a firm, really, if you think about it, not that long ago. So I think you guys said October 2023.

Gwen Hodges: That's right.

Rachel Dillon: Yes. And we're recording now in June of 2025. So not even two full years. So share some of just an overview [00:08:30] of what the firm looks like today. And you guys can fight over who wants to share what first.

Gwen Hodges: Um, so, uh, we mentioned before that we have two offices. We currently have five staff members, so we have seven people total, including Anna and myself. Um, we service typically small to medium sized businesses, probably like many of your listeners. Uh, we are working with [00:09:00] them, doing bookkeeping, payroll tax returns and advisory services. And so we are sort of doing different than we had done in our traditional firm that we were at. Uh, we saw a need for clients who wanted to actually, like, thirsted for more help. And so that's the that's the clientele that we're helping is those, those folks that are thirsting for more. Um, so that's kind of our ideal client and our services [00:09:30] that we offer. Um.

Anna Hergenrader: And we also kind of what I, what our, our last firm did, um, a decent amount of assurance work, but what we were noticing is that less and less clients, even the ones with, with bonded jobs and and large revenue amounts, just weren't needing those services so much anymore. And even if they were the ones that were needing those, we were so involved in [00:10:00] their day to day, you know, accounting that we likely weren't very independent any longer. So the main, the main and we were able to help them with the things that Gwen and I enjoy doing more with the tax planning and the, you know, the preparation and stuff that that it really we've we've found, you know, other CPA firms that we you know, we put together all of the information and, and they run the programs and they do um, you know, they [00:10:30] give their opinions on it. And but I don't even we probably have a handful of those that even need those any longer. Um, but the things that we have always enjoyed so much with our clients is the day to day stuff, answering the questions and helping them with the things that that they need in June and August and, um, that we're drawn to and we love. Well, I, I love tax returns. I do love I don't love individual returns. I'll be really honest. But I love, um, higher level entity returns, partnership [00:11:00] returns. You know, s corporations those are those are I mean, everybody has a favorite. Those are mine.

Marcus Dillon: So the puzzle, if you will. Right?

Anna Hergenrader: Yes, yes.

Marcus Dillon: Um, I think it's it's really cool and sharing some of the things that obviously we hear, um, from, you know, other people about you. Um, one of the, one of the phrases that keeps coming up is they're killing it. And, um, one of those things that I'd love for you to share is the [00:11:30] the growth trajectory from October of 23 to today, um, June of 25. Right? So less than two years. Um, what what does killing it look like? Uh, and hopefully it's a it's a good, you know, killing it versus, like, the negative. So.

Anna Hergenrader: Well, Gwen and I talked this morning. When? Because no one likes to. You just don't want. I'll be very careful about being boastful. It's. You know, [00:12:00] when you start saying it, it. I just it makes me really nervous. I knock on wood before I say anything, but I said, let's make sure that we're right with these numbers. Um, because if that's not being that, those are just facts. So, um, and then I thought, Marcus and Rachel are going to think we're insane when we tell them we've brought on 177 clients since we started, October of 23 new clients, and those are not clients that we'd worked with previously. So. And then, Gwen, [00:12:30] I think you know our revenue number better.

Gwen Hodges: Um, I think it's, um, A million 760. So right under 1,000,008 is, um, our revenue as of for 12 months, as of April 30th. Yeah. Um.

Marcus Dillon: That's awesome.

Gwen Hodges: And we're we're proud of that. Um, so. Yeah.

Rachel Dillon: And you should be proud of that. And that is not boastful at all. That is hard, hard work that will probably get into real quickly about what that looked like, um, to [00:13:00] start and to literally run with it, uh, from the minute that you guys made the decision and then started. So, yeah, congratulations to both of you. That is incredible. And and, Gwen, when we were talking, um, just a couple of days ago, you were just saying, you know, that there there is plenty of work for all of us who are in this industry. We all have different, um, [00:13:30] experiences. We all have different interests. We all have different services that we offer, and even for those of us who are so similar, there are still plenty of small business clients and clients who are looking for the things that we can provide. So I love that. That is just the mindset out there that you guys have that it is not, um, we are not limited on prospects for our businesses. We are only limited by, [00:14:00] you know, kind of what we set up in our have the capacity to do.

Marcus Dillon: And I well and I'll just echo congratulations ladies. I mean that is impressive. And, um, what what seems to be working really well? I mean, 177 relationships. One I'm just going to round up because I like to do that 2 million in revenue. I'm going to just just put you there. Um, and that's where it's like what seems to be working really well. And I assume you're selective in who you work [00:14:30] with, too. Two.

Gwen Hodges: We we are, we are. I mean, we're selective in who we work with today more than we used to be. You know, pre Hodges and Hagen Rader, um, you know, so today it's just clients who want those monthly services, you know, not someone who just needs a tax return. Done. So. So from that perspective, we are very, um, um, selective in, in who we work with. And, um, we have clients that are historical clients. So we've [00:15:00] worked with some of those 20 and 30 years that are working with us that, um, we would love to convert to that monthly revenue model. Um, just because we feel like it's so crucial for their business. And so we're trying to get our firm set up in a way that our processes are in place. Um, we've just started a relationship with keeper, um, to help us with those monthly relationships, and we're excited to get that on board [00:15:30] and going. Um, so we know that that's a big part of being able to service those clients.

Marcus Dillon: No. It's great. And the the even what's impressive, you know, from seeing a lot of firms and running firms, um, is 2 million. And I'm giving you that I'm speaking, uh, the future truth, right? Um, but with seven total team members, including the two of you. So that's that's impressive. Alone as well. Have you have you been able to find [00:16:00] talent, find great people? Where have you kind of what resources have you tapped to build that team that that really is serving those clients today?

Gwen Hodges: This might be a tricky one for us to answer.

Marcus Dillon: Well, I don't want to get you in hot water either. Like if this is going to issue some legal ramifications. No answer.

Anna Hergenrader: No, I think, um, two, three, a handful of the the staff members that are with us, um, came from our last firm. Um, we [00:16:30] had worked with them for a long time. We. Gwen and I, well, I can talk for myself, but I think Gwen as well, we have an aversion to. Just advertising for a job and going through resumes and that type of stuff. We have found that. What's better for us is finding people. Our very first hire is. She was a cybersecurity. Um, but she was. A the daughter of a friend of mine or someone [00:17:00] that I knew that I've become friends with. And honestly, that. Was. And Gwen, when Gwen and I had we call it our first retreat, we were sitting at my dining room table. She spent the weekend at my house, and we sat at the dining room table and did just about everything we needed to do. And, um, this our staff member came by. She, like I said, we needed someone that we could trust. It was. All of our clients tax returns, all of our clients information, everything. And and I thought [00:17:30] this has to be someone that that we are certain, you know, has that can protect our interest and, and that type of thing. So we tend to go off of and we tend to hire from people that we know, um, people that are referred over to us, that type of thing. Um, we've I don't know that we've ever even, um.

Gwen Hodges: The one time we did it were.

Anna Hergenrader: Yes.

Gwen Hodges: Yeah. One time we did it, it didn't quite work. So.

Anna Hergenrader: Yes.

Rachel Dillon: How how long until you found [00:18:00] out that it wasn't going to work? How many, how many days or weeks did they make it?

Gwen Hodges: Well, they made it for they made it four months.

Rachel Dillon: Four months.

Marcus Dillon: Okay, but. But when did you know talking about trust your gut. And when did you know?

Gwen Hodges: Um, I mean, I hate to say probably 2 or 3 weeks.

Marcus Dillon: Okay.

Gwen Hodges: Yeah.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah.

Gwen Hodges: I mean.

Marcus Dillon: One.

Anna Hergenrader: Thing that has been so great about our our team is everyone fits. [00:18:30] Um, I've always kind of thought, if everybody can travel together and everybody, you know, if you can go places and you have a good time personally, then that also carries over a lot into the office. So we've always thought, you know, if they if we can, if we can be together in big groups and we enjoy being together and we can go places and do education, training, things like that, then, you know, it's usually a pretty, a pretty good fit. So we've been lucky in that respect.

Marcus Dillon: Do you want to hang out by [00:19:00] the pool with this person? Right. Or at.

Anna Hergenrader: The beach? Exactly which we did. Which we did. We had a retreat down here in Wilmington, and we stayed at a hotel over on the beach. Even, um, the other staff member, her, um, her name is Ryan, and she wouldn't mind me saying. But, um, she lives in Wilmington, and she and I both stayed at the hotel right across. I mean, I was a mile and a half from the house, and we sat at the beach and And we had the best time. Um. That's awesome. Yeah. So I think that's where it starts.

Marcus Dillon: Oh, yeah. Are those five? Uh, do they [00:19:30] work in some of the offices alongside the two of you, or do people remote? How does that set up?

Gwen Hodges: We have a hybrid setup. So, um, actually, Ryan is the only person that's in Wilmington with Anna, and the other folks are here in Raleigh. And so we, um, have asked them, would they like to. How would they like to work? And so they choose. And so we have a couple of part time people, one that works strictly in the office, and the other ones have chosen days of the week that work for them to [00:20:00] be in office or out of the office. So, um, we feel like, you know, we want to give them the autonomy to, to set their schedules. And, um, so that's, that's what has worked best for them and worked well for us too.

Marcus Dillon: That's great. I mean, I think, you know, just the flexibility is what's going to win. Uh, and we're seeing a push with Arto and people, um, doing different mandates. Right. And that's not going to end well, at least in my opinion. So y'all are definitely doing the right thing by asking the team members [00:20:30] what they prefer.

Anna Hergenrader: I think, you know, when someone has done public accounting for long enough, you know, it doesn't matter if they work 20 hours a week or 50 hours a week, or if they're remote, or where if someone's going to going to if someone's good at their job, they're going to get their work done. And I always just find if they're happier and can do the things that they feel like they need to do with a better balance. I mean, it, you know, it's just long term that that's what's best for everybody involved.

Marcus Dillon: Oh, sure.

Rachel Dillon: I [00:21:00] love that. I want to go back to the to the early days of the firm.

Anna Hergenrader: The dining room table.

Rachel Dillon: All that long ago. I want to go back to the dining room table from the dining room table. What did it look like? What were some of the initial things that you guys kind of did to get you to where you are now. Like, I think that that is probably where you guys started and really set yourselves up for success was at that dining room table and the months thereafter.

Gwen Hodges: Yeah. [00:21:30]

Anna Hergenrader: When is a notebook queen? If you go anywhere close to Gwen. Gwen has 33 binder notebooks with with dividers, and she is a logistical champion. So that dining room table was laptops and notebooks.

Gwen Hodges: There definitely was a notebook for that. Yes. And we, um, we we worked with, um, actually an advisor that, that you guys [00:22:00] have on your team that was able to help us a lot with the setup. So that was one thing that we really appreciated was being able to have that setup help. Um, you know, what is it that we need to be thinking about? And so one of the big things, of course, was software, because that's something that you, you know, being an accounting firm, you can't thrive if you don't have the correct software. Um, so.

Marcus Dillon: So what were some of those big rock softwares that you all landed with? Just stuff that you had used before [00:22:30] and felt comfortable with?

Gwen Hodges: Yeah, mostly it was so, um, Thomson Reuters. So we use ultra tax. Um, we use their fixed asset program and we use their workpapers programs. And then we started canopy. So we we had not had a, um, a good project management software that we had used previously that we really liked. So when we, um, had this introduction to canopy, we just thought this would be great. And so we [00:23:00] use it for our, you know, workflow management. We use it for billing. We use it for files like portal, you know, access for the clients. Um, and we have really enjoyed using it. And the clients seem to really like it as well. And then most of our clients are on Qbo. And we use Microsoft products.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. So very similar stack. Something that we're familiar with. And how with with that stack let's say how have the clients that you served in a previous life, how [00:23:30] have they adapted to to your new way of working?

Gwen Hodges: Well, some of them have. Some of them we have tried to keep very similar to what they were used to. Um, everybody seemed to really like canopy. Um, so when it comes to them transferring information to us, that was something that, you know, we just communicated to them. Ryan helped us do that, uh, via email. Here's what we're rolling out. Here's, you know, how to set up. And she kind of managed that setup [00:24:00] for our clients so that it was seamless for them. But that's that's kind of the that was kind of the biggest thing that was different for them.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah.

Anna Hergenrader: Client did um, the one of the key things for us that one of your advisors recommended to us was infinitely virtual for our cloud platform. So they are they are our they are our IT provider. They handle all of our computer setups. They help us with our with all of our internet security. And they are [00:24:30] our, um, our cloud. And we don't have anything server based. Everything is in the cloud. And they have been wonderful. And that came from you guys. So from one of your advisors. Yeah. Because that was what was that was one of our biggest stumbling blocks is when we cut over and are us. We have to work that day. So so that was huge. That was really big for us.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. Well, I think the other thing there is, uh, with, with multiple locations or even a remote team like, hey, who's got the server? Who's got the box, [00:25:00] right? And does that house have a generator on it in case there's, you know, a hurricane or whoever knows what's coming our way? So I think that's a smart call. And especially with a team of seven. Um, makes a lot of sense for you to be able to scale and add new team members that way. So good call.

Anna Hergenrader: Yeah. Yeah, it was a lot of change for us and for our clients. And so we tried to minimize the change on the clients when we were moving everything over. But also, honestly, it it feels like COVID was a very [00:25:30] long time or COVID was a long time ago, but it really doesn't feel like it was that long ago. And I think that our industry was so impacted by Covid and we had to be everything to all of our clients. So Pptp loans, employee retention credits, you know, all of the SBA loans, the Eidl stuff, it, you know, all of a sudden a client that usually needed you this amount of time, now they need you three times the amount of time. Everything was just so chaotic for so long that [00:26:00] worst. And still in North Carolina, we're still on an extended deadline. We haven't had a real tax deadline in five years. I mean, we're still, you know, our 2023 returns aren't due until September the 25th of 20 this year. So, you know, if we ever get back to April the 15th, I don't know, this may be a completely different podcast, but.

Marcus Dillon: Well, you gotta you gotta love you gotta love those extended deadlines. Right? And it's just yes, people once they know, they know. And [00:26:30] they're not, uh, they're not motivated. Right? Like they are with a deadline. So, um. Yeah. Prayer for y'all. You know, I think that's one of those things, like, it'll it'll eventually get there where it'll all work out. And, um, hopefully one day it will.

Anna Hergenrader: So another thing that we found, too, when we were trying to kind of, um, I guess, say normalize our client base was we found a really good, um, CPA that had been in business for a long time that, thank goodness, was [00:27:00] taking on individual clients. So we really didn't have to tell anybody. You need to go find someone. We were really able to refer people and make sure that people had someone to take care of them and that type of thing. We didn't want to put anybody in that situation, and she has been fabulous and very helpful in that respect. So that's nice too, to have other, you know, other, you know, other professionals that everybody wants to help and someone can benefit from something that someone else can't do any longer. It's a it's a big deal.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. And that's, that's [00:27:30] been a part of our story as well. Just knowing your peers, you know, whether they're down the street, same office building towns over, uh, because their ideal client may look completely different than your ideal client. And you can share in that together and help each other out. So I think that's that's great. Um, you know, the legacy firms that we grew up in, right? And kind of cut our teeth in, they would say yes to anything. And it was, you know, it was just this mindset of, I've got CPA, [00:28:00] e MBA after my name, whatever that is, and I can do anything right. And it's just it's a different world now. And so do.

Anna Hergenrader: Everything. Well. Yeah. No. Do everything well. I know that.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. You can do anything you want, but, you know, it's one of those where, um, your time is more precious than you know, so. Yeah.

Rachel Dillon: All right. After software decisions were made, what do you think were kind of the next biggest steps that you guys took to kind of get the ball rolling [00:28:30] and get the doors opened and functioning as a legit accounting firm.

Gwen Hodges: It was important to us to have a presence, to have an office. Um, so that was one of the things that was very high up on the list was to have a location that we could work from. Um, you know, a lot of our clients were clients that are local that, you know, like to come in and drop off information, you know, that kind of thing. So we thought that was important. [00:29:00] Um, it was important, it, it turned out being important to a few of them. So that was one of the things is we went sort of searching for office space, and we were able to find a space that and we we actually worked out a really good deal where they allowed us to have what they called a swing space, a temporary space for we were in there for maybe six months, um, while they were constructing the space that we're currently in here in Raleigh, which I served as [00:29:30] the construction manager for this space, um, in.

Anna Hergenrader: January and February. And she was doing. Yeah, she was doing wiring and cabling and she would say, can I talk to you about this? And she'd say something. I said, I have no idea what you just said. I don't know what cabling is, but it sounds really important. Really, really important. I have learned.

Gwen Hodges: About it that morning. Yeah, yeah. Um, so, you know, having [00:30:00] having the structure for for our team to have a place to be to, for us to be able to work. Um, was, you know, our next, you know, biggest kind of hurdle. Um, so we feel lucky with where we wound up and we feel, um, happy with the space that we have now.

Marcus Dillon: It's great.

Gwen Hodges: Um, and then we went to. I don't know if you want to tell the story of. That was the Raleigh space. I don't know if you want to tell the story of the Wilmington space, Anna, and how that came about.

Anna Hergenrader: So [00:30:30] with my with with the firm that we were with before, um, I was still I had been in Wilmington for a while, just kind of on my own. And we, I was leasing, um, a space because my husband works from home, so I cannot work from home as well. So I was leasing a space and I knew I needed more room for, um, we needed some, you know, I needed some help. So we looked around for a couple of of offices, and I thought, Wilmington is just. It has. I mean, what Covid did to is [00:31:00] it moved a lot of people from the northeast down to the southeast. And so Wilmington blew up and just space leasing everything became just non-existent. So we stumbled into, um, a space that was for sale. And so we we my Glenn says, my husband, my husband says, we bought a zoo. We bought. So we bought an office space as well. Um, so we kind of redid that office space. And we've got two offices there, [00:31:30] a lobby and a conference room. Um, so more space for us there. And, um, yeah, we we did both of both two spaces and, um, tax season and. Yeah, I mean, I laugh because you have to laugh to keep from crying. Um, but, yeah, we're still alive. So we did it. Yeah.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. Did Gwen come over and help with the low voltage wiring that was needed in Wilmington.

Gwen Hodges: Well, she got somebody to help locally there. [00:32:00]

Anna Hergenrader: Yes, yes, yes. We actually, though, um, we have sent contractors back and forth for different things between Raleigh and Wilmington and they're like, well, I'll go to Wilmington. So yeah, Gwen's like so and so will be there at so and so time and yeah. So we have shared in the um, yes, we try for both of us not to learn how to do the same thing. Um, and I've kind of said we're lucky in that we, we really care a lot about each other and get along really well, but we don't enjoy doing the same [00:32:30] things, which is great, because the things that she enjoys, I don't enjoy and vice versa, which is, um, which is I don't know, it's probably why we get along so well because she'll say, I do not want to do this. I'm like, oh, I'll do that. I would love to do that. Yeah.

Marcus Dillon: So that's great.

Gwen Hodges: Yeah. And it was important for us too, that both offices, if a client went into either office, they had the same feel. So that was another thing. Like our furniture is the same, our colors are the same, you know, that kind [00:33:00] of thing. So we wanted the same feel the same, you know, logos, all that kind of stuff. So we didn't want it. We wanted it to be cohesive and not separate.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. That was everything on brand, right? You know, it just has the same feel for sure.

Gwen Hodges: That's right, that's right. We wanted to do it first class from the beginning just to. Because we are first class.

Marcus Dillon: You are. I think it's something. It's something to be proud of too, right? I mean, it's your name. It's your initials on the door. And, um, you [00:33:30] show up there way more than a client does. So you want to enjoy it, too, and you want to be somewhere. That's nice. So I get that completely.

Gwen Hodges: Yeah.

Anna Hergenrader: I said a lot. I don't want to limp through this like, we we don't. I don't want to limp through this and fix it later. Let's just do it. Let's do it right the first time and make sure that we've done it all the way. And it might take a little bit more, but we'll eventually we'll, we'll get back above, you know, above water again. And um, I do feel like we're there. Finally, I think that she and I both have been able to say, um, you know, I feel like [00:34:00] I can breathe again. Yeah. Which is a pretty strong statement.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. Well, y'all, the race that you've you've run so far has been impressive for sure. So, um, I know that there is a lot to be proud of with the firm that y'all have built. And I may be jumping ahead. Rachel so I apologize. Um, whenever I started what is now DBA, I look back in maturity to the firm that I worked in and the firm that I left. And part of me has [00:34:30] to ask this question. So is there any empathy or anything that you now realize being on the other side, that you have more empathy for the people that are still there, or those leaders that are still there then you than you did when you were there, if that makes sense.

Anna Hergenrader: I think that we have incredibly like we've worked with people for a really long time and learned a lot, you know, and it is not typical for people to be in one place [00:35:00] in an accounting firm for 20 or 30 years. Sure. You know, no one does that. So, I mean, our entire careers, you know, were were there and we learned so much. And it is it is hard to run a business like this where people work so much. And so much of that time that you have with your client is within, you know, two and three months of the year. And that is one of the things that I think that the doing [00:35:30] things on a monthly basis, that type of stuff, it I mean, if you do not push towards that business model, you are just looking at an eternal tax season for for the rest of your career. Um, that's been huge for us, pushing to that and listening to people that had been doing that ahead of us. Doing that was a real was I mean, it it really is crucial our our staff. Um, again, you don't want to be boastful, but our staff doesn't work overtime during tax season. [00:36:00] They they don't. I mean, if they do, it's because they want to get ahead on something. It's not because, you know, they just don't. And Gwen and I work, work, work less just because we decided if you're going to do this, you have to do it. And there has to be a reason behind doing it. So.

Marcus Dillon: Sounds great.

Anna Hergenrader: Did I answer that properly or did I go off?

Marcus Dillon: No, I think so. I mean, um, you know, some of some of the things like I look back on and running a business, you know, being the sole owner of a business, maybe two, um, [00:36:30] it's one of those where there's just a lot of decisions to make and there's fatigue in that. And, um, you know, from what HR issues you're dealing with to what technology do we need to invest in to, hey, this person just left and we need to go find a replacement. So I have a new sense of, um, now being on the other side and being an owner. Right? Um, there's more empathy, more maturity than I have today than I did when I was a team member on that other side. And, um, it's just one [00:37:00] of those things, like, I'm still very thankful for the path that led us to where we're at today. Very similar to where you are. And, you know, but at the same time, like, maybe it maybe I should have given a little more grace when I was in that team member role, is what I've learned.

Gwen Hodges: Yeah. Well, and you.

Rachel Dillon: Can never oh go ahead.

Gwen Hodges: I was going to say we were both partners there. So we we were partners at that other firm. And, um, so we, we know a lot about, you know, when, when people [00:37:30] left and when we had to hire new people, you know, that kind of thing. So, so a lot of that was really close, you know, to, to the belt. Um, but, you know, we did have what we called a, a family atmosphere, a family relationship with everyone there. So it was a very hard move to leave, um, just because of the relationships. Um, but it was something that, you know, we had worked for so many hours, for so many years, and we just wanted to do things [00:38:00] a little differently. So it was hard to do that. But it was definitely the right move for us. Um, and it was, you know, at the right time.

Anna Hergenrader: We I don't think either we would have been able to navigate doing it, um, had we not had, um, the, the, your, your group, I mean, we yeah, we just you had to you had to see that people were already doing okay, doing the things that we [00:38:30] were trying to go to. You can't just say it might work. It was so much more, um, it just gave us a lot more confidence to see people are doing this, and it is working and they're working less and people are happier. And so there's got to be something to it. So let's learn how to do it right. And then and she and I both just wanted the same thing. We were very like minded. We like we have you have to lean on technology anymore. You just have to um, yeah. There are less people that enjoy doing what we do. Um, I'm worried [00:39:00] about our industry in the future. Um, but there again, I think that's what gives us there's no competition. You know, we everyone just loves everybody else that do what we do. Because you're you're not fighting for clients any longer. You know, it just it makes us better at what we do.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. No. That's great. Um, love, love the fact that you look for survivors. Right? First it's like. Did they. Did they live?

Anna Hergenrader: Uh, look over the edge first before you jump, make sure you're okay down there.

Marcus Dillon: They live. Uh, but [00:39:30] then two, you've mentioned Christine, uh, in passing a few few different times. So we definitely want to give a shout out there. And, um, you know, as far as a guide, what she is able to help with and the rest of the team as well on the side. So, Rachel, I know you've got some questions specifically related to some of that, so I don't want to steal those.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. Well, before because we have we have shared all of the wonderful things about Hodges and Hagen Rader and how much you have accomplished in such a short [00:40:00] what I think is a short amount of time. I know there are firms who never make it to where you are. Their entire careers, their entire existence. They dream about it, they think about it, they push for it. Um, but they just don't ever quite make it. So let's go the opposite way and talk about anything that you would have done differently. Um, from kind of from the beginning or as you were getting started, is there anything that you can think of off the top of your head, [00:40:30] either that if you were starting a firm today that you would do differently or kind of that? Yeah, maybe not that you wouldn't do or that you did wrong, but just that would have made things easier.

Gwen Hodges: We always say.

Anna Hergenrader: We kind of.

Gwen Hodges: We did everything right. We we were lucky. We we planned it for a long time. You know, it was it wasn't a let's do this tomorrow and tomorrow. [00:41:00] We just started. It was a very planned process. So ask us that question in another year or two. I think it's too soon to know. From my perspective, I would.

Anna Hergenrader: Yeah. Gwen and I kind of talked about that and and, you know, since we're, we're not even two years in, you know, we feel like maybe we haven't learned what we did wrong yet. Maybe, maybe it's still coming. I certainly hope not. Um, certainly hope not. But we overanalyze and analyze and then overanalyze [00:41:30] again everything that we were going to do before we got to the point of actually pulling the trigger. So and in fact, at the point that we probably that we pulled the trigger. We were probably way past, you know, we should have done it. I mean, we just how many times can you go over the same thing? So, um, yeah, I think that we were so cautious and so careful. Um, and because, you know, we're starting a new firm at the time that some people retire, um, you know, so and, and I think that also says that we enjoy what we do. [00:42:00] We love working with our clients. It makes us happy, um, the people that we work with that makes us happy. I mean, you know, everything that it does for our families. And we're so grateful and gracious for for all of it. So we were very cautious in doing it. So I think if we made any mistakes, well, um, like I said, maybe we can do this podcast in a year and we can, you know, go back to those and say, we should have said this, but, um, we'll let you know.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. No. That's great.

Rachel Dillon: I think that's so important, though, to note that you [00:42:30] you had experience, you didn't come in as a brand new, fresh out of college. And just think I'm gonna conquer the world with no idea. But not only did you have your own experience and your own firms that you worked in, you had the experience of a lot of other firms as well that you were looking at and watching and learning from that have all been so open and transparent to say, don't do this. Or if I was starting over, I would have [00:43:00] started with this. And then you, Gwen, specifically put a playbook together of exactly all of those things of what we're not going to do, but we are going to do it this way and just kept that going. And Wow has really set you guys up for success.

Anna Hergenrader: So he could fill up all of Marcus's bookshelves back there with her with her binders. And I promise you, she probably still goes to them. I mean, she's I have that I have I know you do. Yeah. She's excellent [00:43:30] with that.

Marcus Dillon: Would you, I guess two questions. Uh, first one is, if you were able to go back to your previous self knowing everything that you did, the hard days that we've all lived through in previous firms, would you have recommended that person do it sooner?

Gwen Hodges: 100%.

Marcus Dillon: Yes. Yeah.

Gwen Hodges: Yeah. 100.

Marcus Dillon: And was there was there an event or was it just the pain of staying the same. Just reached the point of the [00:44:00] uncertainty of change? Was there something big that happened or was it just one day y'all both came in in the parking lot, looked at each other in the eye, and you're like, today's the day we've got to make a plan. We got to put a book together.

Gwen Hodges: I don't remember a day specifically that something happened. Um, but we knew things could be different. And, um, Anna and I went to a conference, and, um, that was where we were kind of inspired [00:44:30] to see that there were other people there doing what we thought we could do. And we met them and we talked to them and we could touch them, you know, and they were open to us. So having a community of people that is willing to share that information, I think we wouldn't be where we are without a community like that, without, you know, peers who care, knowing that we're all in this together, willing to share information. Yeah. [00:45:00] So I think it was I think that was pivotal. You know, we came back from that conference going, we can do this. We we knew we could and now we really can't because other people are doing it.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. And you're like, I'm smarter than them. I can totally do this right. You know, it's like.

Anna Hergenrader: Marcus is doing that up there. Yeah, we can do it.

Marcus Dillon: Oh, man. Like that should give everybody hope, right? So that's good.

Gwen Hodges: Yeah. So? So yeah, I think that was that was kind of our stepping off point.

Marcus Dillon: That's good. [00:45:30]

Gwen Hodges: All right.

Rachel Dillon: What are current goals or initiatives that you guys are working on right now?

Gwen Hodges: We're trying to work on our processes and just consistencies among clients. Um, since we are that's.

Anna Hergenrader: One of the things that Gwen is good at that I do not do. She's like, she'll say, can I can I slow you down a little bit so we can get a line? I'm like, oh, Gwen, come on. And and then, then I go back to something later and I think, I don't know how I did that, and I don't know how I did that because [00:46:00] I don't do processes and we have got to get those down. And Gwen, she's like, you need to slow down. We we have to do this at some point. We have to do this. And she's 100% right. So we're trying really hard to do that right now.

Gwen Hodges: Yeah. So that's what we're we would love for our processes and consistency across clients and staff members to increase. So that's what we're doing in this improvement season is trying to to do that, because we know that that's where we need [00:46:30] to go. And especially, you know, as we bring on new clients, we want them to be set up properly from the beginning. So that's one of the biggest things that we're trying to do along with delegating. So, so trusting our staff and delegating things to our staff and just knowing that it's going to happen. But they also need that process and consistency upfront from us so that it can happen the way that it needs to. So I think that's our biggest thing we're working on right [00:47:00] this minute.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. And the tools that we have today, compared to the tools that we had ten, 20 years ago, are just amazing for things like that. And y'all done a really good job, even when it comes to like the feel of your office spaces, right? So why wouldn't you want the feel of the client experience to be the very same thing? Uh, regardless of who's serving them within the, you know, the brand. So that's really that's really special.

Gwen Hodges: Yeah.

Anna Hergenrader: Yeah. And letting go. I mean, we've got great staff. They're very smart. They're very [00:47:30] capable. They're go getters. There's no reason that we can't let go and give them those things, but we've got to get them consistent to let it go and give them those things so we can focus more on on those pieces. Um, yeah. Easier said than done sometimes.

Marcus Dillon: Well, yeah. And speaking from experience, like once the structure is built, especially if you're not the best person for that system, it's easier to hand it off to somebody else to go put it into that system. Then you struggle through that process. [00:48:00] So I would just give you that encouragement. And, you know, it's like sometimes handing it off for somebody that really that's their love language to take and go put it in that very defined box with keeper.

Anna Hergenrader: We decided when and I decided we had our staff sit in on the meeting, and they decided that they liked it. And Gwen and I said, okay, let's do it. And two of them are doing it. We don't even know anything about it. It's great, I said. I don't want to know how someone else will have someone in Wilmington that knows how to do it, [00:48:30] and someone in Raleigh that knows how to do it. And and they're and they're off to the races. They're already set up. And we didn't even know they've got a meeting first part of next week. So it's great.

Marcus Dillon: That's awesome. Yeah I love that.

Rachel Dillon: All right. Well let's wrap up with this. Um, within collective, is there anything that has been more helpful than others, anything that you've gravitated towards or used? Um, more than something else? There's a lot available in the collective community [00:49:00] as far as peer groups and advisors and resources events. Um, what has been kind of specifically helpful or helped you guys in your firm the most?

Gwen Hodges: I have really enjoyed the events. So there's, um, the webinars that you guys do. There's been so many that I find are very, very helpful. And the one that you had this week on the cybersecurity, uh, Ryan, she's our cybersecurity guru. And so she signed up and [00:49:30] did that one this week. You know, so they're they're not just accounting related. They're um, you know, they're just helpful across like firm building kind of thing. Um, we've implemented the team of three. So the team of three resources have been very helpful for us too. And then personal favorite is the in-person event, the recharge event that we went to. I mean, that was amazing. Just, you know, just being able to to, you know, connect with people. And one of the things we brought back was [00:50:00] the daily three. And, um, we've implemented that. And I think it's something that our team loves and it's been very helpful. Just I don't know, just it puts another touchpoint when you're not in the office together. So all of the things that we've learned have been super helpful. So we're very grateful to the collective community.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah.

Anna Hergenrader: And as we as we we haven't done forums yet. Um, we just joined Collective Win Gwen. And a couple of months ago. [00:50:30]

Gwen Hodges: Uh, officially in January.

Anna Hergenrader: Okay. Um, and we hadn't done the forums yet. We said, let's get through tax season first and make sure that we don't, you know, that we don't sync up. But I think that she and I, you know, that would that would likely be something that we would, um, that we need to get into. We've just kind of tried to take baby steps and make sure we're not putting the cart before the horse. Actually, the last two years have felt like that. Just don't don't run behind the cart. Um, so.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah, as much as as much as y'all like community and being surrounded by [00:51:00] others that are trying things success, failure, sharing that with others, I think y'all would find a home there. And then, especially some days you walk away. Especially if I'm in the group, it's like, man, I can't believe he did that. I feel so much better about myself today. Right. You know, so, um, but yeah. No, that's that's a, that's a good, uh, a good option for people that definitely need that.

Gwen Hodges: And I can say one other thing. You're, uh, the team members that you have have been super helpful. The advisors that you have have been super helpful [00:51:30] if if I've posted questions, you know, in the chat, um, I can't remember the right term for it. It's not chat, but in the, in the membership.

Marcus Dillon: Platform.

Gwen Hodges: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, you know, somebody, if nobody answers it, somebody from your team jumps in and answers it. So that's been very helpful. And I've had some specific software questions. So it's been nice to have that support as well.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. It's kind of like you know something that a little behind the curtain, um, [00:52:00] whenever a question comes in we all see it and we all want to jump in and answer it, but we have to, like, let others potentially answer that, uh, first. And so after an amount of time, then we kind of poke, you know, hey, will you go answer this question and elevate that team member to do that. So I appreciate that feedback. Just know that we want to jump in and answer everything as quick as we can. But sometimes we we have to let people grow, uh, by.

Gwen Hodges: Understand that 100%.

Rachel Dillon: And we know that [00:52:30] other other firms in the community probably have even better answers. And we don't ever want someone to think only they only Dillon Business Advisors has the right answers, or only the collective by DBA team has the right answers. I don't want to share the wrong answer knowing good and well. The majority of the firms in there could answer that question perfectly, and in 3 or 4 different ways that may align better with what you're trying to do. So yeah, we love that. [00:53:00] We are so grateful to have you guys in the collective community and to get to be part of your journey of firm ownership. Is there anything that we didn't cover that you wanted to share before we end our conversation today.

Gwen Hodges: I can't.

Anna Hergenrader: Think.

Gwen Hodges: Of anything in particular. We're very grateful for you guys and for the community that you've created. Um, it's very supportive and very, um, you know, we we wouldn't be where we are without it. So [00:53:30] having that, um, it means a lot. So we appreciate what you've done and put into it and the ability and it's a.

Anna Hergenrader: Lot it's a lot to put to put yourself out there and and you know, to say, I mean, I remember going to one of the conferences and Marcus said, you know, I did this and then I did this, and then I was here, and then I was here. And you could see like the I mean, you're making yourself really vulnerable to, to to do all of that. But, um, people learn from that. And, and it's a, you know, it's [00:54:00] a big thing to do and you have to be brave to do it, but, you know, um, yeah, there's somebody always listening. And, you know, if you can hopefully, you know, listening to our story, um, you know, someone won't necessarily. It's like, you know, with the boat. Um, don't wait so long to turn the boat around. You know, if you trust yourself, you know, if you feel like. If you feel like it's something that you can do, um, you know, also, don't jump too soon. Make sure you plan, you know, and it helps to have somebody it helps [00:54:30] to have a community like like you guys. And it also helps to have a partner that can that can support you, that you're you you both want the same things because that's, um, it would I cannot imagine him having done it on my own. I would not. No way. Absolutely not. Um, so.

Marcus Dillon: It wouldn't be. It wouldn't be as fun to do it alone. Right. And navigate change and uncertainty alone. Um, so one appreciate y'all. I appreciate your openness to share everything that you've done today. And then, [00:55:00] uh, there's there's going to be a story on the other side of this, somebody that's listened to this and that encouraged them to take a step out or take a step in that right direction. So the fact that your success can be somebody else's success. I thank you for that. So, um. Yeah. Rachel, why don't you go ahead and close it out?

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. I want to share one thing with you guys. Uh, just as we were talking even earlier in this conversation, but something that, um, a couple people have told Marcus and I that you attract [00:55:30] who you are, and I think you guys are attracting who you are. You are successful and organized and driven and thoughtful and intentional and caring, and I think you attract that. So to see that you guys have built an incredible business is not surprising, because that's who you are, and we're just happy to be part of that story and to let you know it's not a miraculous, uh, thing [00:56:00] that's happened. It's not a coincidence that you've just been really lucky to find, you know, these people or these clients, but really, it's a testament to who you guys are. So glad to be your friends, proud to be your friends. And thank you again for stepping out of your comfort zone and going on a podcast. Um, just because we asked, hey, would you be on the podcast? Thank you for agreeing to that. We really appreciate it.

Gwen Hodges: Well thank you.

Anna Hergenrader: Thank you so much for having us.

Gwen Hodges: Yes, yes. Thank you both.

Anna Hergenrader: We'll do it again next year. [00:56:30]

Rachel Dillon: All right. All right. Well that's perfect. And we will, um, talk with you guys later.

Gwen Hodges: Thank you.

Anna Hergenrader: Thanks.

Rachel Dillon: Thanks for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed the conversation and want to learn more, be sure to visit collective CPA. You can schedule a meeting directly with me, Rachel by clicking on the Contact Us page. Be sure to subscribe, like, and share so you don't miss any future episodes. [00:57:00] We look forward to connecting with you soon!