Who's Really the BOSS?

There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.

Rachel Dillon: Hi, I'm Rachel Dillon, and together with my husband, Marcus Dillon, we lead Who's Really the Boss podcast, where we highlight the joys and challenges of running a business with your spouse or family. Our mission is to strengthen families and businesses by helping listeners avoid the mistakes we have made so they can lead.And live happily ever after.

Rachel Dillon: Welcome back to another [00:00:30] episode of Who's Really the Boss podcast.

Marcus Dillon: Hey, thanks for having me back.

Rachel Dillon: And we have a special guest with us. Ben. Gabriel. Hey, Ben.

Ben Gabriel: Hey, Rachel. Hey, Marcus. Thanks for having me.

Rachel Dillon: Well, thanks for being on the podcast, but even a bigger thank you to being part of the collective by DBA team. So we get to spend a lot of time with you these days, which is super exciting for us.

Ben Gabriel: It feels good. I am ready for awesome Some things, so. [00:01:00] Feels good. I'm excited.

Rachel Dillon: Nice. Well, will you give a little introduction in case any of our listeners haven't met you yet?

Ben Gabriel: Well, that's going to be hard, Rachel, because I think probably everybody knows who I am. But for anybody that hasn't the 1 or 2 people out there. Um, my name is Ben Gabriel. I have, I guess, about 20 years in the accounting profession, but I am not an accountant. My background really started on the software and technology [00:01:30] side, and then moved into what I would just generally call the consulting side in there, and that is, I believe, how I probably met both of you guys, although that was probably some years ago at this point.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah, absolutely. Tell us a little bit about your family and a little bit about what keeps you busy outside of the working hours.

Ben Gabriel: I have a wife and we have a soon to be eight year old daughter. [00:02:00] Her birthday is coming up here in about three weeks or so. And as far as I know, for the birthday party we are going to have in the vicinity of like 17, 7 to 8 year old kids here. I believe that I am in charge of setting up a scavenger hunt that will probably be outside at this point. So I had you've just reminded me that I need to give the scavenger hunt some thought, because it's got to be a good scavenger hunt with [00:02:30] good clues. Um, keeping me busy. I like to just be outside and everything. So I love all the seasons and the different activities for each of the seasons we're getting towards, I guess the very end of summer here, turning into fall, which means it starts to get a little bit cooler. I'm in Colorado here and then ski season isn't too far away there, so I guess I'm probably looking forward to skiing, although it's several months away [00:03:00] at this point. But, uh, yeah. Rachel.

Marcus Dillon: Ben, you, uh, for those that that may have not heard of you, the 1 or 2 people. Um, you're in Boulder, which we were able to visit you this past summer and got to experience Boulder and its uniqueness and all the color that comes along with the city. But obviously getting to see you and your family and then, uh, kind of get a get a feel for what you live in a daily basis, which a lot of people would consider it, you know, Paradise, [00:03:30] uh, with the climate and just the, the view of everything. So I know that you enjoy a lot of mountain biking right now, given that season, and you get to go on rides every day, right?

Ben Gabriel: I would like to go every day. Marcus, I do try to get out for like lunch ride. I call it like a lunch ride. It might not always be at noon lunchtime. It might be like a 2:00 lunch ride or something like that. But I try to go out my door and get on my bike. You know, I got, I guess, back into mountain [00:04:00] biking probably four years ago, you know, once my daughter was born. Got real busy with that. And, um, I spent my time doing some other things, but got back into biking a few years ago and have just tried to go guns blazing back in that direction. Try to ride a lot with my brother. He's better than I am. Not ashamed to say that he's a really good rider. So I just, uh, try to get closer and closer to him.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah, well, we were fortunate enough also [00:04:30] this summer to go on family vacation to Colorado. And I want to ask you, the bike you ride. Does it have a motor on it to where? It's it's cheating, right. It's not what we grew up with. Uh, thinking about BMX and all, you know, all the really, um, hard riding. So does your bike have a motor on it?

Ben Gabriel: My, my motors. Like, right in here. Marcus. Okay. Just pumping in my chest. Um. Got it. I do not [00:05:00] have an e-bike. E-bikes have become a, you know, more and more and more popular over the years. And, um, you see him a lot around town, for sure, and things like that. I do not have an e-bike.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah, well that's great. Um, no, we we weren't fortunate enough to, you know, Rachel, she likes to stay on budget when we go on family vacations. So the e-bikes you had to rent and there was like a, you know, exchange of dollars for that or the hotel has, [00:05:30] you know, these bikes that have collected dust, the seats a little bit bigger, I guess, if you will. Probably questionable if they'll even make it back. But those are free, right. And so that's, that was in line with the budget for the day. And so we were I think the only people pedaling around on the non-motorized e-bike. And I and I can tell you like that thing was making some noises by the time it got back to the hotel, I think they just retired it and hopefully put [00:06:00] it in a museum that its last ride was with me. And yeah, it's e-bikes are definitely a thing to look into.

Rachel Dillon: I'll tell you the benefits of the hotel. Complimentary bike. We did not have to make a reservation prior. They were fully accessible and available and they told us we could take them for however long we wanted so they were not in high demand. So we really just, you know, could go out and do whatever we wanted to do [00:06:30] for as long as we wanted to do it with those bikes. It was awesome.

Ben Gabriel: Where did they have like a bike counter there. And when you walked up or they were like, excuse me, you want you want the bikes? Um, were they surprised.

Rachel Dillon: They weren't.

Rachel Dillon: Even chained? They weren't even chained. They were just lined up in the front of the hotel for anyone to take.

Ben Gabriel: Now, I'm concerned that you didn't take the hotel rental bikes. You just took somebody's bikes that happened to be parked at the hotel. Who did you guys talk to about this? Was it just a guy, [00:07:00] like, standing there drinking a cup of coffee or something?

Ben Gabriel: You sure you rented bikes? Yeah.

Marcus Dillon: I think they were laughing more when we left than we came back. You know, they brought them back.

Ben Gabriel: Those people that saw those.

Ben Gabriel: Bikes just brought them.

Marcus Dillon: Back. Yeah. That's awesome. Good stuff. Okay, well.

Marcus Dillon: We'll have to try it one day.

Rachel Dillon: So before we get too far off track, we like to ask each of our guests, what is the best piece of advice you've ever been given? And if it was to rent the e-bike, that's fine too. But [00:07:30] what's the best piece of advice you've ever been given?

Ben Gabriel: Well, it was.

Ben Gabriel: It's return your stolen e-bike. Rachel, that's so the best piece of advice ever given. And I you let me know about this in advance, and I appreciate it. And I gave it some thought. So my I've told this story before. I've told it. I've told it publicly before. A time or two. But my grandma lived to be, I think, 98, and she passed away probably a [00:08:00] four years ago now during Covid. But before that, I had always asked her, you know, once I was old enough to realize that I should, you know, that I can ask questions, you know. She was always positive, or at least whenever she was around me. And I would ask her from time to time like I didn't see her all the time. We lived on different areas of the country. But I'd ask her like, what's your secret? You know, this is coming from her grandson. Like, what's your secret? Like, you're 90 years old, you're bouncing around, you're dancing, you're smiling, [00:08:30] whatever. You know. And she was a normal person too. But she always had this energy, and she never would tell me. She always kind of, like, looked at me and like, you know, bounce away or whatever. Like, she didn't want to tell me.

Ben Gabriel: Or maybe she wasn't ready. Or maybe she didn't know, I don't know. But one time I asked her and she said, keep on moving and don't shuffle your feet. And that's all she said. And I think that you can interpret that however you [00:09:00] want to interpret it. And you might interpret it differently one day versus the next day. And I've thought about it a lot. And the way I interpret it. Right. There's two parts to it. But keep on moving. Like you know, maybe that literally like like don't stop whatever it is that you're doing in life, in business, with things, with family, don't stop. Keep on doing it. Don't stop. Don't get complacent. Maybe, you know, um, and then don't shuffle your feet, which I interpret to mean [00:09:30] if you're doing it, do it. You know, go, go at it, go guns blazing at it, do your best at it. And so that's how I interpret what she said. I will always remember that. And it's probably the most meaningful piece of advice, and I've been given good advice by other people. Don't get me wrong, I have, and I cherish it. That's probably the most meaningful piece of advice I think I've ever been given.

Rachel Dillon: I [00:10:00] love that, and I love that you're not the first guest, and not even for myself. When I think about the best piece of advice that has mentioned a grandparent. And I think that that just makes me, even though we're just 42 years old now. But that makes me even more excited about becoming a grandparent, to be able to have that type of impact on another generation or, you know, like our family generations that come after us. So I think that's super cool.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. [00:10:30]

Marcus Dillon: I think probably to couple on to what you just said, Rachel, I think there's always two grandparents, the one that gives good advice, and maybe there's the one that just gives advice, right? Like, hey, go jump off that bridge or, you know, like and hopefully I've got a low bar. You know, when it comes to our grandkids. So, uh. Yeah. That'll be good. It'll be fun times.

Rachel Dillon: They can't be with you unattended. Like you have to always be supervised visitation when they come to visit.

Ben Gabriel: You, for sure. [00:11:00] At the end of the.

Ben Gabriel: Visit, it's like, what now? What did grandpa tell you guys? Did he tell you guys to do anything? Just let's run it by me real quick.

Marcus Dillon: He just took my e-bike. I don't know what happened.

Ben Gabriel: You know grandpa stole another bike. Yeah. Um.

Rachel Dillon: All right. Marcus, will you give a brief overview of how we've been working more closely with Ben recently?

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. So Ben and I have a past, right? And so we worked together in previous groups and [00:11:30] really helped, uh, other accounting firm owners in a previous life. Ben continued doing that after a season of of kind of reflection and working outdoors, something that he loved in Colorado and had a break, and then he was able to go back and kind of do some of what we started and continue just good growth for for firms and for individuals to unpack what we all deal with on a daily basis and share with [00:12:00] one another in a safe space. And I think those groups that Ben continue to lead, I know, speaking like for myself, when I wasn't in those anymore, I missed it. I mean, that was the highlight of my week, my months, sometimes just a season of life to be surrounded by peers that aren't going through the exact same thing, but are maybe going through something similar, have gone through something like you're going through in the past, or maybe even just hope to go through some of those [00:12:30] challenges that you see as a challenge, and then it just reframes your perspective on like, okay, this is a goal to this person, and I'm considering a challenge. So I think all of that to say, like Ben and I used to work in that manner, helping other people see, you know, what they're working through, really just unpack it. And I'm excited that he's on this journey, on the collective journey with us now to help other firms moving forward. And, you know, with what we're doing at collective building that out, you know, [00:13:00] creating that space again, man, I am I am so excited if if not for anything else, that I can get a group back and have some counseling and some direction to my everyday life because man, I have missed it.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. So Ben, tell us a little bit more about each of those kind of areas. And I'm going to I'm going to list three. And if there are more then feel free to share those. But I know mastermind groups one on one advisory [00:13:30] as well as your own podcast have really been where your time has been focused, work wise in the most recent months.

Ben Gabriel: All those are. Those are probably the three big things. Um, Rachel? Yeah. Um, so the from a groups perspective, and this is Rachel, you said it. And Rachel and Marcus, you talked a little bit about it. I've had the privilege of, you know, being, I'll say, [00:14:00] facilitator. That's my best word for it because I think that's most accurate. A couple of of small groups, a couple of groups of ten, uh, accounting firm owners. And I think that it is really cool to be able to just surround yourself with a group of other people that you can get to know, that you can share information with, that have maybe been through, dealt with [00:14:30] or dealing with, or just know what your experience is like on a regular basis. And then if you're inside of a group of those folks just having that safe space to share and share what's going well, which is awesome. There's always good things happening and then share what those challenges are. Has anyone else dealt with this? What do other people think about these things? It just feels good to have that space. And that space is really [00:15:00] a group of people that can come together on a regular basis and be there for you. And every person's different. Shocker. Every firm's different. Another shocker. But people have a lot of the same challenges, you know, and they're listening in. Hey, here's my challenge. What's your challenge. And being a part of that is it's a privilege. And it's also a lot of fun to see people come together [00:15:30] and ultimately help each other. I think that's the most fun part of it. The group, certainly the group part of it, yeah.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah. I don't know when you and I used to lead these groups years ago, it feels like now we used to start them off with a success and a challenge. And I don't know if you still do that. I used to love that as part of the Room of Peers. Right? Because as, like a technically trained auditor, I was taught to find the flaw right in [00:16:00] the financial situation. Or maybe that's carried on through, like finding the flaw in my life on a daily basis. So when we would ask that question, a challenge and a success, man for myself, for others in the room that probably have that same kind of background, we could list off so many challenges, right? Like the world is against us. Uh, this is not balancing, if you will, like the debits and the credits of life. And so it just seemed off to us. The highlight [00:16:30] was, even if you didn't talk about a success the rest of the month, you were forced to bring a success and trying to change that perspective that maybe you had and celebrate a win of some type. So I know looking back, that was a highlight and it started off every meeting for me. And was there anything else that stood out to you? Or maybe it's some of that same thing whenever you're leading these groups? Um, just the goodness that kind of came out of it.

Ben Gabriel: You know.

Ben Gabriel: We did, [00:17:00] um, I think we did a we spent time doing just what we call the goals check in one month, Marcus. And when you when you really sit down and goals check in wasn't just you know, these are my future goals and where I am. That's what we called it. But it was also a it was a reflection time. Hey, you know, since the last time I thought about this or maybe since the last time I talked about this publicly, how whenever that was, maybe it was six months ago. Maybe it was a girl. Maybe it was [00:17:30] one week ago. I don't know, these are the things that we've worked on, and it's, um, impressive to sit and say, look, we did these things and we made this kind of progress. And just hearing those things and taking the time to talk about them, I think is good. Um, I don't know that you're necessarily unique when you're like, and I mean this, like, positively like I can think of all my challenges. Totally, man. [00:18:00] Like, when you're driven and you have goals and desires and things out in front of you, that's what I'm thinking about. I think it's a really good and smart thing periodically to be like, okay, hold on one second. Let me just take a little breather here. Look. Look how far I've come or look at the things that I've knocked out. And we're probably not going to live back there because we're looking this way and we're I'm pointing forward, everybody. You can see me, right? Um, I'm looking forward, but it is good to just take stock [00:18:30] of those successes and those accomplishments and celebrate him. And I also like to think, you know, celebrate him with the people that were a part of that journey with you. What? Maybe you did it yourself, but maybe in a lot of cases there was some other folks that helped. So make sure to celebrate. Celebrate those things and take the time to think about those successes.

Marcus Dillon: That's great. Um, I think there, you know, just the self-development kind of chapter of life that we've been in and [00:19:00] where we are in, we listen to a lot, we read a lot. And I know there's a place for gratitude journals and things like that. And I think Rachel does a really good job of reflection on what is maybe going well and kind of being able to build up. I was listening to another podcast. It wasn't your podcast, unfortunately, been this week, but, um, another podcast was saying when when you have a loss, you know, you can mourn the loss. You can kind of beat yourself up for a day [00:19:30] and then move forward. And then in the same thing. Whenever you have a win, celebrate for a day and then move forward. And so I think that's the piece. Like in my life, I know that whenever winds come and Rachel can attest to this, like the wind comes, I'm real quick to like, okay, what's the next win and what's next on that list going down of being just driven and kind of goal oriented and not celebrating properly. And then when there is the loss, that loss creeps over into [00:20:00] the next day, and then it creeps over into the whole week or the next week or the whole month. So I know I'm not alone in that. And I think, Rachel, you have some great tips on just how to, you know, reframe perspective, if you will.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. Um, I don't I don't know if I have great tips on reframing perspective, but I do know that the weight or the value that we give to the win needs to match the weight and the value that we give to the loss. So if we're going to, you know, [00:20:30] Stew stew over the loss for days or weeks or months. We should be doing that same thing in the opposite direction. We're going to celebrate those wins for days and weeks and months, and that they should really be more in balance rather than one being so potentially detrimental to your progress or your mental health. Um, in that respect, I know that within our small groups, within collective, they're called forums. [00:21:00] And I know that these goal check ins, like Ben mentioned, are really helpful in the fact that they're not just spoken out loud, they're actually recorded and documented, and they're posted for the whole group to see. So for those ten members of that small group, they're posted out there, one, so you don't have to remember exactly what you shared at the last one just by your own memory and two by those being documented. What I love is that all the members can refer [00:21:30] back to that. So if they're thinking of trying something, for example, they're implementing that same software or they're implementing like team of three structure, then they can go back and say, oh yeah, somebody was talking about that in our last group that that was a success that they were having from, you know, their implementation of that structure or that strategy that they were doing in their firm. So I love that not only is it for the individual, [00:22:00] but then also for the whole group gains benefit from having that documented and saved in a place where it can be referenced back.

Ben Gabriel: Yeah. It's fun. It's fun to see what other people are doing. You know, it's fun to to talk about what you're doing. Um, it's fun to get input from people. It's it's fun to know that maybe someone else has already done something that you're thinking about you. Maybe you've been thinking [00:22:30] about it for a while. Like, should I do it? Should I not do it? I'm not sure. And then, you know, you can see that someone else has already done it. And you may you may still make a different decision, you know, because everybody's different and every business is different. But now you can be like, hey, I know that you did this. How did it go? You know, of course I'm always asking any advice here. I'm thinking about doing this. Any advice? The first question I'm asking, right. And it could be good advice like, definitely do this. It could be like negative advice like, don't do this. And [00:23:00] you're like, awesome. You know, like that's awesome.

Rachel Dillon: I'll Speak from us. Like just in the small groups, Marcus, as you helped facilitate them as you've been members of them, as a spouse of yours, I think it's helpful for you to have that place as well, to be able to talk through some things that maybe I can't hear one more time as the spouse and or that our team is not [00:23:30] ready to hear yet. So maybe these are ideas or struggles and you don't. Maybe in that group, I know, is where you were able to come up with some language to kind of reframe and think through and talk out these ideas that maybe I was done listening to that as your spouse, and maybe that the team wasn't quite ready to hear the messiness of the idea, and it needed to be put together a little bit. So I know just [00:24:00] being kind of playing a different role in your life, like what those groups mean as someone who's not even in the mastermind group, that it's beneficial both to not just the individual end, but also to the family and to the team that's related to that person in the group.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah.

Marcus Dillon: And I'm sure there are between the the people that have worked with me and Ben over the years, and I'm sure they're much better people to bring in and talk about [00:24:30] maybe the change that they had in their lives or their firms. But for me, being here today, I will say yes, like that space and having peers alongside you is safe and you can throw crazy ideas out that would get you kicked out of the room, so to speak, depending on who's in that room, if it was a spouse or a leadership team or even a whole team. Because, um, I think you like the crazy that is in your mind. You just have to kind [00:25:00] of get it out there with other people that also are fighting the same battles of like, hey, this is what we're dealing with as an industry or as, uh, owners right now. And these are the choices that we have, and these are the challenges that we're going to have to navigate. So doing that together was always super helpful for me. And then, like you said, being able to refine and unpack and be able to more clearly define or even say what [00:25:30] the true goal was.

Marcus Dillon: Um, was was better after kind of going to a group and sharing it with peers. Um, and I just look back at that time of whenever, you know, just that chapter of when I led groups alongside Ben and then even after Ben, you know, and it's just some of my my best memories professionally are in those groups whenever we just had fun and you challenged your fellow, you know, owner to do things or fellow leader, and you always back it up with like, hey, this [00:26:00] is my experience. This is what I've witnessed over my career. Here's a resource, here's a podcast, here's a book to go listen to, just to like, hey, this helped me get through where you're at. And then sometimes it's just like, you, you need to go fire that person. Like today, you know, like I challenge you to fire them. And it's just hearing it in a different way actually may motivate someone to move forward with the decision they may know that they need to make, but they lack the confidence to do it without the support of [00:26:30] of peers or accountability of peers.

Ben Gabriel: Yeah.

Ben Gabriel: Yes, Marcus. You know, I think, um, we all benefit from other people around us that care about us and will listen to us in a lot of times that might just be what we need. I need someone to listen to me that I know cares about me. And an added benefit of that maybe this person knows what [00:27:00] I'm dealing with, and I already may know the decision that I need to make, or the way that I need to go, or the thing that I want to do. But just being able to talk it through one more time, even with a person that you trust and they might, you know, take it out of a professional environment, make it into a personal environment, too. Um, it's amazing what what that can be.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah.

Marcus Dillon: I think speaking for myself and others that have been in these rooms and these groups over the years, um, [00:27:30] after you get a little bit success and you get a little bit of weight around you, it's a little bit harder to make some of those decisions. Right? Because, um, the, the weight of the decision could have changed versus when you were just starting out and you were more nimble and you could move a little bit faster. Um, I think back, you know, going back to like the bike analogy and riding bikes as a kid, you know, you're like the ramps eventually get bigger and bigger and, you know, it's like, hey, you can make that jump. You know, you always had that friend whenever you think back [00:28:00] in life like, hey, you can make that jump. And nowadays it's like, not only can you make that jump, but I'm going to film you as you're making that jump. And if you fall like, I'll call the ambulance, right. You know, like, hey, we're going to get through it together. And how how beautiful is that relationship? Because you push the limits of like, what you wouldn't do by yourself. Hopefully. Like, hopefully you're not just going out there crazy by yourself jumping things, but, um, especially in your 40s. So I think those are the the pieces that my peers [00:28:30] have helped me get through and really expand my, my what I thought were limitations, but just be a better version of myself, make the firm better, and, um, you know, push me to do things that I wasn't comfortable doing alone.

Ben Gabriel: Yeah.

Ben Gabriel: Watching people that maybe better than you. Um, that's a way to get better. And, you know, you can also be helping the people that maybe they feel that you're better than they are. You know, that's how people get better. [00:29:00] People. You're pushed. Maybe you're pushed. You push yourself. You're pushed internally, but also other people are pushing you at the same time.

Marcus Dillon: I think, you.

Marcus Dillon: Know, as, as adults, it's like the average, right? You're the average of the room that you hang out with, right? So if you're in a room full of great people, like.

Marcus Dillon: You're getting.

Marcus Dillon: Brought up. And I've always I've publicly said it. I just want to be the dumbest guy in the room, right? Because if I surround myself with smart people, hopefully they'll keep me out of the emergency room. You know, like. But, um, [00:29:30] that's what I've gotten out of these groups over the years.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah.

Rachel Dillon: Ben, let me put you on the hot seat. What have been some of the either recent challenges or most common challenges that tend to come up in the accounting firm, small groups?

Ben Gabriel: Well, the one the just one thing recently, Rachel, that was top of mind was planning capacity. And just having that conversation around how how do you determine [00:30:00] capacity. You know, how do you know where you are in capacity, things like that. That that was a a recent discussion that we had and a really good discussion. And I'd love for you guys to weigh in here? I don't know if there's a silver bullet. Um, but it's it's a real top of mind thing that I think people are thinking about and working through.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah, I.

Rachel Dillon: Have a I have a real [00:30:30] easy answer for that. It's all about firm strategy, structure and systems. That that is the silver bullet is really refining those three pillars that happen to be the same three pillars of collective by DBA. But honestly, Ben, you and I have visited on this topic before, and that's not a unique challenge to just one person from one group. That is a challenge that all of us as a accounting firm owners are [00:31:00] working through daily. So every year that becomes a point of discussion. And every year that actually becomes part of our goals at Dillon Business Advisors, because that is always a challenge that we are looking to continue to improve. So maybe at one time it was a real challenge and the hours were very long and 6 to 7 days a week, and we were always looking for who, where are we going to find that next person [00:31:30] to hire to where we are today, where it's continuing to improve efficiency and provide more value out to the client, but also that our team can find some satisfaction in their day as well and fulfillment with their role in accounting. And so yeah, Marcus, you can definitely expand on that. Some some more specifics. But that's the quicker that's the quick and dirty answer. Right. There is strategy structure and systems for sure.

Marcus Dillon: Well and it it like so [00:32:00] you hit it on the head. And I think each of that to take it a little bit further. It's a personal choice. So capacity you start with how much do how much how much are you willing to give. Right. And we do that with team members whenever we hire new team members, and maybe someone only wants to work 24 hours a week. So if we were to take that 24 hour week person, that's their capacity, right? Like that's the hours and the day. How much can they get done and put them into a role? That is a 40 hour work role. It's misalignment. And [00:32:30] so I think everyone has to answer the question. Whenever you look at strategy structure systems, you also have to make the personal decision of what do you want your life to look like, right? And I know that's kind of the art form that you're weaving in and maybe even stage of life and what you're willing to put into this business or this role at this chapter. Um, but if you start there and then you build it from there, it's kind of reverse engineering, even like the prophet to if you're if you start with the prophet and then you [00:33:00] build the firm to a certain revenue amount, and then you take that revenue and divide it by how many clients you want to serve and get to the average price per client.

Marcus Dillon: Like that's another way to look at it. And I think the capacity Conversation starts with personal preference, and we have firm owners and leaders that we work with that only want to work like success to them is 15 hours a week and then we have some people. Success is 55 hours a week. And I think it also goes to how you're wired, like the DNA inside of you. [00:33:30] What do you enjoy? And we see a lot right now with with burnout. Right. Related to like tax season and all that fun stuff. And burnout is the misalignment of work and your passions in life. So like if, if your work is tax returns, but if you hate tax, it doesn't matter if you're working 15 hours a week or 55 hours a week or 80 hours a week, you're going to feel that burnout. And it's going to it's going to feel like work or pain. But if you love the puzzle [00:34:00] of a tax return and you just like that's your hobby, so to speak, you could easily have capacity more than the next guy. Right. And so I think those are some of the things that you have to unpack that are individual situations. And once you know, like, hey, I can handle 15 hours, 40 hours, 60 hours a week, then we can go build it, like around you to make sure that you're good.

Marcus Dillon: And once you start going [00:34:30] outside of that capacity in an accounting firm and knowledge work, you just work more, right? Like, you just you just put one extra hour in and that begins to snowball. So you have to put up some hard boundaries, and hopefully you have people around you that can hold you accountable, whether it's family or spouse, loved one. And then maybe it's like this group, right? Like of peers that are just asking how you are and they care about you. So that's the capacity. Like it's not perfect, it's individualized. [00:35:00] And it's not a formula, so to speak. But once you have figured it out, then you can start building it. And it's it's not going to be perfect, but it's going to be, you know, it's going to be a living, flowing document. And as you see things tick up, the time tick up or the stress tick up, what are your outlets? What levers can you pull, whether it's hiring internally or outsource technologies? Something of that. And that goes to Rachel's point like structure strategy. And systems like [00:35:30] those are just the different levers you can pull once you've figured out, like, here's the formula, here's what I want it to look like at the end of the day.

Rachel Dillon: What would you say I'm going to I'm going to reverse it for you. We talked about like, this is what I want and this and we can go build it. What about for those firms like ours who built it really big and way over capacity? Um, for anything that we wanted to maintain and to grow [00:36:00] for the future, how do you go backwards to get that capacity in check?

Marcus Dillon: First you have to define what you want, you know. So I think that's the. It was easier for us to build it and then realize that wasn't what we intended to build, and that wasn't the life that we wanted to continue living versus some people are just like, hey, I'm just going to start. I don't I don't know what what it could look like. Right? So I think with our experience [00:36:30] with like, the maturity that we had to go through in that season to just be realistic and say, like, this isn't what we wanted and then start start from there. Like, I know what I don't like, so I'm going to start removing the pieces that I don't like first. And that's in a simple way. That's just what we did. Right. And whether it's delegation of tasks that are something that falls on your plate on a daily basis, you know there's options, right? So if you don't like checking your email [00:37:00] and you get stressed out about your email, go get a virtual assistant that does that for you. Like it's just there's solutions to all of this, but you have to like Ben's. Like Ben's advice. You have to keep moving forward. You can't shuffle right. You have to keep going. And once you get stuck, like, that's whenever life starts to feel really heavy. Did I answer the question or did I answer? Yes.

Rachel Dillon: Yes you did. No, I think you answered it. I think you answered it perfectly in that you have to. Sometimes it's [00:37:30] easier to start looking at the things that you don't like and that you don't want, and start removing those things. And whether that's exiting non-ideal clients, exiting non-ideal services, or just delegating tasks that are on your responsibility as the owner or the leader, I think that, like you said, there are different levers to pull, there are different options that you have available, and a lot of times it is easier depending on how you're wired to think about one, [00:38:00] the things that you don't want or don't like, but To to talk through that with someone else, to not try to keep it all internal, thinking through it, pulling it like mulling it over in your mind, but actually to say things out loud because you just get a different perspective and clarity on things. Whenever you're able to say them out loud and hear them as you're thinking about them.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah.

Marcus Dillon: So we've kind of gone the journey of like, hey, we could [00:38:30] do this yourself based on everything that you know to be true. That that's one way to do it. You could join a group of peers, a forum, do it together with other people, bouncing ideas off of one another and using that collective knowledge to to go do whatever your goals are. That next step, the deepest level, is advisory. So that's one on one. Um, you know, and that's where you're really working with a [00:39:00] trainer, a coach, whatever the analogy is that you want to use. Right. And so I know, Ben, you probably have some some value to add to that conversation because, you know, advisory is that deepest touch point one on one with folks. And I think that's whenever, whenever you see really good growth. Um, but it has to be in the right context. It can't just be I'm doing this because somebody else told me to do it.

Ben Gabriel: Yeah.

Ben Gabriel: Marcus. It it certainly starts with what is it [00:39:30] that you are looking to accomplish? Where is it that you're trying to go? And those could be short term things. Long term things. I don't know where the divider is between short term and long term, but some things are going to happen more immediately that you want to work through. And some things are out there a little bit further, but, you know, setting your sights on what it is that you want to accomplish, you're then wanting to commit to those things and then bringing someone alongside [00:40:00] you that is going to help you and ultimately hold you accountable to working in that direction. I think that accountability is something that, whether we know it or not, and I'll speak for myself like you kind of crave a little bit in a way, and you might look back on some of your best or most memorable accomplishments and say, man, I am so glad that so [00:40:30] and so was here. And they didn't do it for me. But he or she helped me along the way, kept me motivated, kept me honest, so to speak, and look where I am now today versus where I thought maybe I was going to be. And chances are you're a little bit further along. So just that accountability element to, you know, moving forward and achieving those goals, [00:41:00] both the short term ones and the longer term ones. Um, I think it can be invaluable.

Rachel Dillon: Well, let's go.

Rachel Dillon: Let's go again. I think the conversation was really good. I think there was a lot of value that both of you guys added from just that common challenge of capacity. Ben, is there another topic that seemed to come up either more frequently or just from more of the members of the small group?

Ben Gabriel: Uh, well, [00:41:30] maybe I'm just thinking through other things, Rachel. Maybe not necessarily exactly from some small group meetings, but, uh, thinking about things like, uh, product, you know, the right types of product, product bundles. You know, how what are your products look like? What is your pricing look like for those products? That's a conversation. Um, just the regular cadence [00:42:00] of meeting with your team and meeting with your people. For those that have team members and staff, you know, what does that look like? What are you doing on a, let's say, weekly, monthly, quarterly, annual basis, semiannual basis with your team members, with your group of people at your firm? What are some of those things that you're doing? What are you talking about? You know, what's being solved and when and and things like that. Um, [00:42:30] so I think those are a couple more, you know, things that have come up in, uh, recently.

Rachel Dillon: One of those are super relevant to the, uh, a webinar that we just recently did on building and pricing advisory services. So we don't have to we could we could skip that one in this conversation and go to kind of the frequency and rhythm of a team interaction and team communication, because anybody who's listening to this could go check out that webinar [00:43:00] on the Dillon Business Advisor's YouTube on pricing, building, and pricing advisory services?

Marcus Dillon: Yeah, I think a lot of that been like what I heard was just improvement, right? Growth. And I think defining growth for that, that firm owner or that firm, they're just they're improving, right. And I think that's what most of the people that are looking for that, that have raised their hand, so to speak, and joined the [00:43:30] the groups or even deeper at an advisory level. Um, they just they want something better than where they're at or what they've had in the past. And, um, you know, I think a lot of times when, when I was leading groups, um, so many people were focused on top line growth, like revenue. And how can I get this to a certain level? I've been guilty of it myself. Um, but you have to have people that provide perspective that don't just [00:44:00] celebrate the vanity metrics, but they also look at just the overall health of the business, the bottom line or the health of the leadership team, the health of the owners, um, the health of the whole team. Right. Like, are you going through a lot of team members to get to that revenue mark and that goal? And is that the life that you want? So I love the fact that these groups, um, add that perspective of, you know, it's just a safe space to where it's, hey, you can just bring me one challenge, [00:44:30] right? Don't bring me all, uh, all the challenges that you see, and then let's let's talk through that and how other people have navigated those same waters, if they have. And if not, we'll slap you on the back and you'll be the spearhead. And then we're going to learn from you, uh, as you navigate that.

Ben Gabriel: I like to I like to think of things as just taking just one step at a time, you know, one foot in front of the other, making making progress. I think that's [00:45:00] what it's all about. You know, I have raised my hand, Marcus, let's say. And I want to get better. I'm ready. Can you help me? Because I'm ready. I want to get better. And my better may be different than your better. I think it's good to know what others are doing. Absolutely. That's super helpful. Ultimately, where might I measure myself on a regular basis? It's just against me. How was I doing yesterday? How was how was I doing last year? If I'm better, then I [00:45:30] feel good and I'm making progress.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah.

Marcus Dillon: I think the other thing we saw with, um, you know, just the Covid season when we were all sent home, right. I know that a lot of us sought out things like this groups because it got really lonely. And ownership, leadership. It's lonely to begin with, right? Because there are certain things that you, if you repeat them outside the room, like to our earlier point, like it may [00:46:00] scare people into going and finding a new career or finding a new relationship, right? If if it's too scary. But you need to just unpack that. And I know that during that season of just loneliness, um, everybody needs needs something. So whether it's this or whether you have it in another space, another area of your life, just highly recommend, um, you know, get in a room with others that are encouraging you, lifting you up, bringing your average higher. [00:46:30] Um, and then hopefully you're doing that for others as well, whether it's in that same room or, you know, you're going to a different room to maybe kind of lift people up to where you've been. So I think the whole premise behind what we're doing within forums, um, I believe in it. I mean, obviously that's why, um, why it's a part of our DNA at collective, and I've seen so much good fruit. I know Rachel's seen a lot of fruit from from me being in groups from from [00:47:00] her being in different groups. And then probably you could say the same, Ben, just the different circles you've been in over your career.

Ben Gabriel: I think people really appreciate that community element, you know, surrounding themselves with others who are of like mind, have similar goals, you know, and certainly run similar businesses. Um, there's just a lot to be said for those kind of communities, I think helping people, helping each other.

Rachel Dillon: Yeah. [00:47:30]

Rachel Dillon: Ben, tell me, because I asked this, I'll give you some context of why I'm asking, but at my core, I'm an introvert and I'm also a little bit stubborn. So in these groups, when people are sharing challenges, um, successes, How does it. How does it end? Like what is in that group? What is the response or how does the how does the meeting time [00:48:00] together end? Because I know and I just will keep talking. But um, for me, I get a little bit nervous to share things that are personal to me or that carry a lot of value for me because I'm sometimes afraid that I won't. I don't want everyone to solve my problem as soon as I'm saying it. And so what does that kind of look like, as far as when someone shares something that might feel intimate to them? What? What is a normal response [00:48:30] look like? Or how does the meeting wrap up after everyone has shared all of these types of things?

Ben Gabriel: I'm typically trying to look just set, let everybody know, hey, we're we're meeting again, right? Because this is an ongoing thing. So, you know, I mean, honestly, Rachel, Literally it's, you know, probably hey, our next meeting is is coming up and people are probably not thinking about that in the moment at all. We'll be talking to each other again. This is an [00:49:00] ongoing thing. It's not it's not a one time thing if I'm making sense. And while I would, you know, I would always love other's feedback and to hear if someone is like, yes, I dealt with that, here's what I did. I definitely want to know that. Other times, it may just be like letting people know that I'm working on it and just kind of, you know, I'm, you know, just putting it out there, you know, and maybe there isn't a solution, Rachel, maybe there's not a [00:49:30] solution in that moment. Um, because there just not isn't necessarily always a solution. But I know that we may be talking again.

Marcus Dillon: Yeah.

Marcus Dillon: I think to to add to what Ben, um, shared my response to, to you, Rachel, if you shared something intimate, you know, in that setting would be just like, hey, thank you. Thank you that you felt comfortable enough here to, like, share that with us. Like, that's a huge growth moment for some people, [00:50:00] right? Because they don't share outside their mind. Um, within those groups, as accountants, we're like sharing the most intimate details, which are our financials. So I think that's the other piece. Like they know my numbers. I'm in the hot seat. I have to explain why I'm spending 12 to 15% a year on technology costs for subscriptions I don't really use. Right. So I think those are some of the intimate pieces that we as accountants think about. Others would think like other, you know, more scandalous [00:50:30] stuff as intimate. But we're like looking at numbers as like our intimacy. So, um, and then the last piece like to Ben's point. Yeah, it's just a once a month touchpoint as a group, as accountable. Um, but within the collective community, you also have your chat with your group that is just your group so you can continue the conversation after that meeting.

Marcus Dillon: You can also post in there throughout the month. You can also direct message one another within [00:51:00] the community just to check on one another, just to say, hey, you said something. Can I learn more about that? Can I jump on your calendar? And so that's that's the full circle of support that we wanted for these forums within collective. And, you know, there are great places to go outside of collective. And for us it was just what's the differentiator? Why would you want to do this with Inside Collective? And it just goes back to the team that's present between Rachel, me, Ben, Christine, [00:51:30] Amy and the DBA team. Right. That are all there as support. But then that the whole team for that forum member is in there as well. So they may be getting something from the overall community, but as a forum member, you're not just hanging up waiting till the next month comes back up like there is a continued conversation that could happen. And a lot of times it does happen because those meetings do go by so, [00:52:00] so fast.

Ben Gabriel: Yeah, it's it is awesome to be able to stay in touch with people continually. If something comes up because things are yeah, I may not really want to wait for that next in-person meeting. Right, Marcus, like I might, this is a I really would love to talk to somebody right now. And having a group of people that you're tight with that you can reach out to. Um, I think that feels really good.

Rachel Dillon: All right. I think the last part that we need to share is how [00:52:30] did people how did people connect? How do people find their group? So, Ben, will you share a little bit about how would how would someone if they if this sounds great, they need this place of other accounting firm owners and leaders. Just to be able to talk through the successes and challenges of their firm, how can they find that with you and with collective by DBA?

Ben Gabriel: Well, I think just the first thing is, is reach out to us so we can talk to you and get an idea of, you know, if you're [00:53:00] interested in being part of a group, that's definitely step number one. And then step number two certainly is. We need to make sure that we can get folks into groups. Key thing about group more than one. So we need to have multiple folks together. And then once we have group or groups formed Rachel then it's just a matter of, you know, certainly like Marcus talked about, we have our platform and discussion and things like that, but we also want to make sure that we get our group meetings on our calendar, that we can just [00:53:30] prioritize and hopefully set aside that time every month. But it comes down to, let's get into a group, let's, you know, let's get formed up, and then we can kind of hit the ground running and start to get things on the calendar.

Rachel Dillon: Nice.

Rachel Dillon: All right. So to reach out to us, collective CPA is how you can find more information about collective community and forums. And also schedule time for sure on my calendar. Or just fill out that information form and we'd be happy [00:54:00] to contact you back. All right. Well, Ben, thank you so much for being a guest. Thank you for sharing what you've been up to most recently and how you've been supporting accounting firm owners. And Marcus, thank you for your time and we'll see you on the next.

Marcus Dillon: All right. Thanks so much.

Ben Gabriel: Bye, everyone.

Rachel Dillon: Thanks for hanging with us to the end of another episode. Leave us a review with your thoughts, comments, and feedback on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast so you don't miss any future [00:54:30] episodes. Join us again next week for another great conversation.